Isaac Oakeson: All right! We are going. Danny, thanks for jumping on the Civil Engineering Academy Podcast. I appreciate you jumping on and doing this with me.

Danny Luu: Thank you for having me.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. I know you're across the pond. And I love to bring guests on from around the world just to kind of get their experience on being a professional civil engineer outside of the United States so we can kind of get your opinion about things to help people. And there are many people that want to practice, you know, outside of the United States too and work on some fun projects in other places. And there's many people outside of the United States that are civil engineers that want to hear good civil engineering news. So thanks for doing this with me.

Danny Luu: Yeah. Thank you for having me and hopefully you get to hear about proper civil engineering projects from the home of civil engineering.

Isaac Oakeson: I like it. I like it. Well Danny, before we start diving into this, why don't you tell me a little bit about how you found your way into civil engineering yourself? You know, was this a passion you kind of grew up? Were you good at math? Was there a father or a relative that was, you know, kind of helping you along the way? How did you find yourself into this world?

Danny Luu: Well, it's quite an interesting story, actually. Because when I was at school, I actually wanted to be an accountant. I was actually really good at math, so I thought, "Okay, let's be an accountant." When I was 15, we were all required to undertake free week's work experience in an industry that we wanted to go into. So what you'd call an unpaid internship. I'd secured a placement with an accountancy firm local to me. I was really excited to start the placement. About a week before I was supposed to start, they pulled out. So I then had to scramble around with my teachers looking for another placement.

Danny Luu: I managed to secure work experience with a small structural engineering firm. And I was amazed by kind of the engineering drawings that they had in the office. So this was before the days of CAD. So we're talking about huge drawing boards, the set squares, the pens. I was just fascinated by the level of detail in the drawings, and I was going out on site. Because it was a small structural engineering firm, we were really looking at kind of underpinning houses, looking at foundations. Nothing major, but all that just kind of really interested me. And then that what's made me go and study maths and physics at A level, and then go on to study civil engineering at university.

Isaac Oakeson: Wow! So you took a tour of this place, you realized there was some interest there, and then you went back to teachers and told them that you wanted to change course a little bit? Or you just --

Danny Luu: No. So this is when I was still at school. So then what happens at the end of school is then you choose the A levels, which is what you study before you go to university. And then that's what made me decide to kind of go down the maths and physics route and then go into civil engineering. I think it's because, as a civil engineer, you make changes in society and people can see that. And then I was going to people's houses, looking at the foundations, and they were kind of really grateful on things that we do. And that's kind of what made me want to go into civil engineering.

Isaac Oakeson: I love it.

Danny Luu: People see the fruits of your labor, really.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. I mean, it's hard to say other professions, but you know, civil engineering really affects the world we live in in a manner that the public sometimes doesn't recognize, but when it's gone, they definitely recognize that, you know? Whether it's roads issues, anything like that.

Isaac Oakeson: That's awesome. So Danny, take us to where you are today and what you do for a living.

Danny Luu: Right. So since I've graduated, I joined a company called Oscar Faber, which over years has now been acquired by AECOM. So I've worked with consultancies, private developers, local governments. So it's a career that spans 21 years and counting. Hopefully a few more years to go. And I've been a chartered engineer for 13 years. So I have a highways and infrastructure background, and that includes the design and management of urban highways and utilities.

Isaac Oakeson: That's great. Wow. So would you, your emphasis is more, I guess, in the transportation industry then? Is that where your emphasis kind of is?

Danny Luu: Yes. So we would call that kind of the traffic engineering and highway engineering in this country.

Isaac Oakeson: Okay. Okay. What do you think is really challenging about being a civil engineer with your 20, 21, 22 years of experience?

Danny Luu: So over the years, it's really about dealing with challenging stakeholders. So the kind of work that I do is, we have to undertake public consultations. So when we have a highway proposal, we have to consult with members of public to kind of get their views on that proposed highway measures, and also get their support. Now, what I've noticed is a lot of people, because they drive, they think that they're very good highway engineers. And they come up to me, and they come up with several options to where they believe they can solve a problem. And so my role is to explain the problem. And then --

Danny Luu: Also one thing is, people like highway improvements. But just not on their street. They don't want to be disrupted. So my challenge is to explain the problem to them, invite solutions from them so they feel they're part of the design process. And then explain the pros and cons. And then when it goes to consultation, you generally get a better, a greater chance of support. So this is really about testing your communication skills, speaking in a nontechnical language, and also use illustrations rather than just "Here's a CAD drawing. Here's what we're trying to do." I try and simplify things for people and help them understand.

Isaac Oakeson: That makes sense. I imagine in the US and over there in London that the process is probably very similar in terms of getting some of these projects approved and reviewed by the public. And also maybe probably how they're funded. Could you speak to that at all? I mean, I imagine they're, they're pretty similar. I imagine government is helping to fund a lot of these major highway, bridge reconstruction projects. And here in the United States, I know they passed big legislation for a lot of new infrastructure. And so just curious your thoughts on that process over there, how it works, and things of that nature.

Danny Luu: Yes. So working for a local authority, we get funded by the government, which is through taxes. That's when you get the residents saying, "I pay my taxes. I don't want electric vehicle charging point outside my house because I don't have an electric vehicle. So why are you wasting my tax money on this X, Y, Z?" So that's what makes it more challenging and also kind of -- I relish that challenge. It's kind of explaining things to the public and making a change to society.

Isaac Oakeson: I like it. What do you think is the most rewarding part of being a civil engineer?

Danny Luu: It's really -- I kind of mentioned earlier. It's going through the design process and then seeing things get built, and then driving past it later and saying to family "I've done this." They get bored after a while.

Isaac Oakeson: Put your hand on your heart, family. I made that.

Danny Luu: Yeah. So that's the most rewarding part for me. I wouldn't have gotten that from a career in accountancy. Seeing what you've done out in the street.

Isaac Oakeson: That's true. I do really enjoy that. I think that's one of the most rewarding things about being a civil engineer as well. And you know, what you build is going to last for a long, long time. And so people will see that for a very, very, very long time. So yeah, I totally agree with you.

Isaac Oakeson: Danny, could you take us through the process -- You mentioned being a P. Eng. What's the process of becoming that over there? How do you become a professional engineer?

Danny Luu: Okay. So in the UK, we have the Institutional of Civil Engineers, which we call ICE. So that's the professional body for civil engineers. It's the oldest professional body in the world, because it was created in 1818. So we have three levels of professional qualifications, and all that is based on your academic qualifications that you have. So we have Engineering Technician, which is EngTech. We have Incorporated Engineer, which is IEng. And Chartered Engineer, which is CEng. So for Engineer Technician, you need what's equivalent of a foundation degree. For Incorporated Engineer, you need an approved bachelor of engineering degree. And for Chartered Engineer, you need an approved master of engineering degree, or a bachelor of engineering degree and an accredited master's degree.

Danny Luu: And once you graduate, you need to undertake a period of work experience. And this is where you develop the skills, knowledge, and experience to become professionally qualified. And we call this the Initial Professional Development, or IPD, process. And once you've completed IPD, you can apply for your professional review. And for IEng and CEng candidates, this includes a presentation, an interview, and a written communication task.

Isaac Oakeson: Wow! And that is done through ICE, that they present that to?

Danny Luu: That's correct. Yeah.

Isaac Oakeson: Interesting. And how long is that process, you know, to get your work experience before you do that presentation?

Danny Luu: It depends on the candidate. I've known people do it in three or four years, which is pretty fast. I have to admit, I slowed down a bit. And then it took me eight years. There's people that take 12, 13, 20 years. It's entirely up to you. I just recommend people get it out the way as soon as possible, because the more senior you become in your company, the more hours that you generally work and the harder it is for you to find time to complete your training.

Isaac Oakeson: That makes sense. And that's the same over here in the United States. You know, the sooner you can knock out becoming a professional engineer, the better. Because over here, you know, they require examinations. And the longer you push that off, the longer you're out of school, the more and more you forget and the harder it is to get back into a routine. Plus, they combine the work experience. So you have to kind of do both.

Isaac Oakeson: I love hearing the difference of how to do that. And I'm curious if you know, because I don't know, if you are a professional engineer in the United States and let's say I wanted to move to England or something, is that looked at as an equivalent thing or would I have to apply to become a PEng? Do you know anything about that process?

Danny Luu: You'd have to look at the ICE website. I believe there is a way to transfer over to the equivalent in the UK. But that's something that ICE will be able to guide you with.

Isaac Oakeson: Got you. Okay. Well, let's jump into a website you started called [Civil] Engineering Mentor. What was the inspiration behind that and what do you do?

Danny Luu: So as I mentioned earlier, graduates need to complete their Initial Professional Development in order to go to their professional review. So IPD, we measure that against a set of attributes. And for Chartered Engineers and Incorporated Engineers, there's seven attributes that they are measured against. And examples of that would be understanding and practical application of engineering, management and leadership, and health for safety and welfare. So there are three ways to complete IPD. The most common way is to join an engineering company, which has an in-house approved training scheme. So that way you are signed with a supervising civil engineer, a dedicated engineer, and they will provide you support and guidance. The second approach is what we call mentor-supported training. And that's where a graduate has to organize their own training with the support of an ICE approved mentor. And then there's a third way, which is called a career appraisal. This is for more experienced engineers who have enough experience to complete IPD straight away.

Danny Luu: So then I realized that there were many civil engineers out there in the industry that worked for companies that don't have a training scheme. So I then applied to be an approved mentor with the ICE so that I can support these graduates via mentor-supported training and the career appraisal route. So then I designed a website which revises information on how to become professionally qualified, information on the IPD process, and details on the professional review. And the most popular page on my website is tips on how to complete the attributes. That's one that gets visited the most. And I'm also a professional reviewer with the ICE. So I'm up to date with the requirements of the review process, and I undertake mock reviews for candidates as well.

Isaac Oakeson: Wow. That's fascinating. And that was the drive behind doing the website then? To help others become professional PEngs over there as well? I mean, that kind of sounds like the drive.

Danny Luu: Yes. So in one of my previous companies, I worked for developer and we had quite a few engineers in there. But it never had a training scheme. So I then introduced the training scheme for that company. And I then realized that there was a lot of people that worked for private developers as well that don't have a training scheme. Because a lot of developers, because it's kind of a lot of vertical build, they were employing architects and not many engineers. So I found there was a gap in the market and then I -- And also completing the attributes. It's quite difficult for quite a few candidates because the attributes are quite generic. Because it's especially designed for civil engineers in all industries.

Isaac Oakeson: Could you take us through some of those attributes just so people are aware?

Danny Luu: Yeah. So it could be like involvement in the design process, or give me an example where you had to come up with a problem, look at the sustainability side of it. Continuous improvement and sustainable development measures. And candidates come up to me and said, "I don't quite understand what that means." Or they say, "I've gotten this example. Is that good enough?" And then my role is to say, "Well, that's not good enough to be Chartered Engineer level. So you need to come up with a more robust example. Just choosing between a 13-ton crane and a 20-ton crane is not good enough to be a Chartered Engineer. You need to kind of give me a more complex solution and your involvement in the problem, the decisions you made, and how you've evaluated the solution."

Isaac Oakeson: That makes sense. Why do you think a lot of employers don't have this training program set up? Just not on their radar or firms are just too small to really deploy a training program?

Danny Luu: I think it's -- I believe some of them don't want to put one in. Either don't want to put one in or don't like the process.

Isaac Oakeson: Expensive?

Danny Luu: No, it's not expensive. What you need is a supervising civil engineer. So it needs a civil engineer to drive the process. So I believe that's what's holding them back. And that's where I fit in. You don't need to have an in-house training scheme if you want to have your employees chartered or professionally qualified. There are ICE-approved mentors out there that can help your graduates without you implementing the training scheme.

Isaac Oakeson: That makes sense. That makes sense. So if I'm a beginning engineer, I'm just starting out, and I'm trying to find my way through the civil engineering world, is there some advice you might have for someone that's trying to discover where they fit into this civil engineering world, if there's a specific niche that they like over another? Or even if they have found themselves in -- You know, maybe they're neck-deep into civil engineering, but maybe they don't love it and they want to try something different within the world of civil engineering, what advice would you have for them?

Danny Luu: Right. So for those -- I get a lot of inquiries from people that are at school that want to go into civil engineering, I would suggest for them to go on the ICE website to find out a bit more about it. There's a lot of trade journals out there as well. So that helps you find out kind of what we do as civil engineers. For those that are already in the industry, and want to stay a civil engineer but go into kind of a different field, I would say go for it. Because if you're not happy what you're doing, but you want to stay as a civil engineer, then research these other opportunities, other kind of niche that you're talking about. Speak to your company, find out if they offer this opportunity. And if they don't, don't be scared to move on you. You are in charge of your career. Don't let your company be in charge of it. That's my advice.

Isaac Oakeson: That makes sense. And this is kind of how it works over here. But as a civil engineer, are there other disciplines that you could branch off into, whether it's project management, or even management itself, or other kind avenues that you see civil engineers take throughout their career?

Danny Luu: Yeah. I have colleagues that have gone from civil engineers, they've actually moved to be quantity surveyors. They've actually gone and worked for project management, pure project management companies. And then diversed into other industries using their project management skills. I've even had friends at university that studied four years at university and then went into finance, because civil engineers, we have such sought-after skills and experience so that they went straight into finance. And they're earning a lot more money than me.

Isaac Oakeson: Good point. You do bring up a good point. Maybe we could talk about that for a little bit. One of the big pain points I see that a lot of engineers are bringing up right now is pay, and how that compares to other industries, let's say an attorney, a lawyer, or even a doctor. Civil engineers, as we stamp things, as we approve things, you know, the liability of that is on us. And you know, we're trying to keep public safety at the forefront of our mind. There's a lot of lives sometimes at stake when you're designing roads, bridges, buildings that really do affect the public welfare. I guess, what do you think about how engineers are paid in the industry? Is it a race to the bottom when projects are bid on by companies and try to get a cheaper project, try to get cheaper engineering, and it kind of trickles down? How do you feel engineers are paid in general?

Danny Luu: Well, this is a quite common debate over here as well. So we know lawyers and doctors are respected more and paid more as well. When I was at school, I was having a debate with some of my friends about what degrees we were were going to go and study. And I was arguing how important civil engineering was. My friend said, you know, he believed medicine is more important and more respected degree because if he had to go to a hospital, he would want the doctor to have a degree. And I was saying, "Well, okay. What kind of qualifications would you like the civil engineer that designs and build the bridge that you're going to be driving over later?" You know, people don't realize that as civil engineers, we make massive contributions to society. But they're not very noticed.

Danny Luu: So I mean, what I want to say to people is, you know, next time you travel to work or school, have a look around you and you'll notice kind of what a massive impact civil engineers have on our daily lives. I also think there's not enough famous figures out there that promotes civil engineering. And that's at a national or international level. So what I would suggest, you know, as civil engineers, we should be promoting ourselves to friends and family to explain the challenges that we face every day in our projects. And you're saying that civil engineers -- You know, are we paid enough? I just want to say that, you know, there's teachers and nurses that deserve more credit in society. I think as civil engineers, we are all paid well. Not as well as doctors and lawyers, but there's a lot of industries out there that are paid a lot less than us.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, that's very true. Very true. I honestly believe civil engineering will provide you with a great career for your entire career. And there are many avenues to move up in a company. You'll be just fine. Am I suggesting that you're going to be filthy rich being a civil engineer? Probably not. Unless maybe you own the business that's doing the work. But I think you will have a outstanding career in this field. And people do get upset sometimes when you look at our contribution to society and how that equates to kind of other disciplines that are out there. But I think civil engineering is a great field to be in. So I totally agree with you.

Danny Luu: I agree.

Isaac Oakeson: Danny, is there a resource out there that you have found very helpful for engineers to pay attention to, whether it's a book, a website, or a course, or anything?

Danny Luu: So I recommend to all engineers to read the relevant code and standards to the field that they're in. And the reason why I say this is because we're going to test you on your professional review. So you've got to be up to speed on that. So members of the ICE, they have access to the ICE's virtual library. And there's a wealth of kind of books and journals there as well. And don't just read civil engineering. You could go outside of that as well. So at the moment, I've started reading a book that's written by a colleague of mine, and it's called Life Remixed by Mark Wilkinson. And this is a straight talking self-help book, which is helping me reevaluate my life and make a change for the future. So books like that to help you motivate yourself to do even better in your work.

Isaac Oakeson: I love it. That's great advice. I was just thinking while you were talking. I know we've hammered a lot about the process of becoming a PEng. And I'm curious, is there anything else on the top of your mind that you would love to share with those that are trying to become a PEng on the process of how to do it or anything like that?

Danny Luu: So what I say to my kind of mentees at the moment is, set aside time every week to do your training. If you set aside 45 minutes to an hour every week, and continue to do that, you'll get through your training a lot quicker. I know there's pressures of work. You know, I've got mentees in their twenties that want to go out partying. I mean, they shouldn't stop doing that. I say to them, "You do your work Monday to Friday, including your training work. Friday night to Sunday night, that's yours." But if you get yourself into a routine, you'll get it done quicker. And then you can then progress to the next stage of your career.

Isaac Oakeson: That's great. Perfect! Well, Danny, I appreciate this. What's the best way for our CEA audience to connect with you if they had some questions about anything we've talked about today.

Danny Luu: So you can visit my website, which is www.civilengineeringmentor.com. It's got my email address. You can find me on LinkedIn. And I'm happy to answer any questions that you have, big or small.

Isaac Oakeson: I love it. Danny, thanks for jumping on. I know our time difference kind of affect how we get together, but we've made this work. So I do appreciate you jumping on and doing this with me. We'll hopefully have you on in another episode.

Danny Luu: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Isaac Oakeson: Thanks, Danny. See you.