Isaac Oakeson: Hey! What's up, everybody? Isaac here with Civil Engineering Academy. Excited to be with you on another fun podcast episode. Thanks for joining us. If you're watching this on YouTube, make sure you like and subscribe. It really helps us out. And leave comments if you want to. And if you're catching us on any pod catcher, it's also helpful for review. So, appreciate you doing that.

Isaac Oakeson: Today, I bring on a fun guest, Sam Lytle. He is with Beyond CAD. He actually is a civil engineer that graduated from UNLV, went to go work in the transportation industry, discovered that he really wanted to dive into his creative side of things, and we talk about this all throughout the podcast. But started a software company, basically, that helps with 3D visualization, sold it, and then started this other company called Beyond CAD.

Isaac Oakeson: So, it's a very interesting story. I think it's a fabulous product, something you should definitely check out. And if you have any questions, definitely reach out to him, and we talk about it in the podcast episode. So excited to share that with you, and it's gonna be coming up right after this.

Isaac Oakeson: All right, Sam. What is going on? Welcome to the Civil Engineering Academy Podcast. How you doing?

Sam Lytle: Good. It's good to be here.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, I'm excited to have you on. I've been perusing all the products and the software you've got going on, and I'm excited for it. I think this is good stuff. I think before I want to dive into that, though, I want to ask you a little bit more about your own background, and how you found yourself actually into civil engineering, and how did you end up here doing software. So what's the story behind that?

Sam Lytle: Yeah. So I mean, growing up, I liked to create things. Legos. When we did ninja turtles, I was the Donatello of the crew. And as I got older, my dad said, "You know, if you want to be an inventor in the real world, those are called engineers." So I went to UNLV in Las Vegas. Actually started out mechanical engineering because, again, thought I wanted to be an inventor. And as I got further in my career and got married and started having kids, the counselors at school said -- You know, mechanical engineers typically don't end up in Nevada, and I wanted to stay kind of in this area. And so I switched to civil because, you know, there are civil engineers pretty much anywhere you can go. So I switched to civil about halfway through my college career, and graduated in 2010.

Sam Lytle: Started my career with the Nevada Department of Transportation. I spent three years with them and a year with Kimley-Horn. And while I was at NDOT I realized pretty early on that engineering was not for me. I'm a creative person. I did not like the cubicle and the boss and looking things up in manuals. Not one bit. But I was fortunate to kind of dabble in 3D visualization. I'd done some stuff in school with SketchUp and Revit. And so I started doing some project visualization for some of the project managers at NDOT, and they liked that. And so, I stuck around for the four years to get my PE license. But pretty early on in my career, I knew that I wanted to kind of diverge and go more into 3D visualization in the civil industry.

Isaac Oakeson: Wow. That's awesome. Well, I don't want to say it, but some would say that switching from mechanical to civil is an easier route too. I've heard that before.

Sam Lytle: Yeah, I've always thought -- You know, it's like civil, mechanical, electrical, you know? I sat through some of those mechanical and electrical courses and I'm just, "I just don't even know what's going on."

Isaac Oakeson: It's that imaginary stuff?

Sam Lytle: And as they say, you know, what's the difference between civil and mechanical? Mechanicals make the weapons and civil engineers make the targets.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah, that's what I've heard.

Isaac Oakeson: Well let's dive into it a little bit. So you got into 3D visualization. How did you go from that to starting a company? And how did that start up? What was the mindset behind all that? Because I feel like there's a lot of engineers that maybe couldn't, or wouldn't, take that step. So I'm just curious what your mindset was and kind of the footing of how you got going with the business.

Sam Lytle: Yeah. I think I'm wired differently than a lot of people, especially engineers. I mean, like I said, I'm creative and I'm definitely not very risk-adverse. Like, I knew I had a family and I wanted to provide for them. But other than that, like, I was just really interested in freedom and being my own boss. And so, I'm not a huge gamer, but I'd always played enough games that I knew kind of how that world worked. I have a brother that's been a video game programmer for a long time.

Sam Lytle: And so, I would see civil engineering and I would see the 3D models that were created in Microstation or Civil 3D. And they looked so crude, but it was 3D data. And then you see something like a racing game and you're just like, "Okay, we have 3D data. We have a racing game over here. Like, how can we bridge that gap and make 3D visualization, like, interactive and look better?" And so, you know, early on, I plotted my course that I wanted to do 3D visualization full-time.

Sam Lytle: Like I said, in 2014, I got my PE license and I started Civil FX to be the combination of civil engineering and visual effects. And my goal was to make money and provide for my family and all that stuff. But also to bridge the gap between civil engineering and video games, and to utilize some of that technology so that we could have interactive visualization.

Sam Lytle: And I've seen this in architecture. Like, I followed that industry a little bit. And, you know, they have tools like Lumion, and more recently Twinmotion and Enscape. And those really utilize real-time visualization in a way that our industry doesn't. And I mean, that visualization is easier because there just aren't as many variables. I mean, the biggest variable probably is the terrain. You know, you have cuts and fills, especially the transportation and freeway projects that I've spent a lot of time on. And they're just bigger, more complex, more disciplines involved. And so there's a reason why we're lagging behind architecture.

Sam Lytle: But that said, my goal was, "Let's push towards interactive visualization." And so that's kind of what we did with Civil FX. And immediately -- I mean, the first two years of Civil FX was me with a backpack and a laptop pretending to be an artist, because I had no training in that. I'd just, you know, gone to school in civil engineering and spent four years doing that. But eventually, I was able to get some big contracts and hire some actual artists and make progress. And then we did exactly that. We used video game technology to make interactive visualization a real thing in big transportation projects.

Isaac Oakeson: That's awesome. So for those that don't know, or are just hearing about this, maybe give us a little high-level view of what the product is, what the software is, and what it can do for people in their industries. Because I don't know if everybody has heard what this product is. So I think that would be helpful.

Sam Lytle: Yeah. Let me just kind of finish my journey and get to the point where we're getting products. So with Civil FX, there were no products. We were doing client services. So we would be, for example, Project Neon was one of the biggest projects in Nevada's history. It was a design-and-build contract. Kiewit was the contractor and Atkins was the engineer. We were a sub to Atkins, and we provided visualization services for that project. We would take all the engineering data, make it in 3D, make a realistic 3D environment. We were using Unity 3D at the time, which is one of the major game engines. And then the deliverable was images and videos that they would put on the news, that we would use at public meetings. But we'd also do interactive stuff, like interactive touchscreens driving simulators, VR, and they really liked that.

Sam Lytle: So that project neon was our first big one. And then we started getting more of those types of projects. And again, I worked at NDOT. And so a lot of my friends were now project managers and that really helped those relationships where I got a lot of these big NDOT projects. And we started moving into other states and cities and we started to grow. So from 2014 to 2020, I was growing and building Civil FX to the point where we had 10 employees. Most of them were artists. We had some programmers. And we were doing this as a service.

Sam Lytle: And through this whole journey, I realized there was not good tools for this. I mean, we had this complex -- We were basically a video game company doing civil engineering services because there weren't good tools available. In architecture you don't have that, because Lumion or Twinmotion does most of the heavy lifting for you. So late in the Civil FX days, I was like, "You know what? We need to create a product because this doesn't exist. It will help us, and maybe we can sell it."

Sam Lytle: And in 2020, I was approached by Parametrix, which is a company out of the Northwest, the Washington area. And long story short, they bought Civil FX, the company, the contracts, the employees, and the client services. But I went and started a new company to continue that journey of making a product, or products, that would make visualization easier for the actual engineers. Does that make sense?

Isaac Oakeson: Uhum. How did you feel when Civil FX was sold?

Sam Lytle: I was really grateful. I mean, we were knee-deep in COVID. So like, when they first reached out to me -- I guess they first did it in 2019, but when they really came to me, it was may of 2020. And there was so much uncertainty at the time. And so, I had so much concern and I was, like, "Wow, this is a really cool opportunity" to, you know, kind of cash out some of that risk that I had been holding and still have an opportunity to move forward with the product." And so that it ended up being a really good experience.

Sam Lytle: And the team, they hopefully have even a better situation. You know, now it's Civil FX, a division of Parametrics. And they still do wonderful work, and I recommend them all the time for visualization services. But you'll hear a lot of times people that sell businesses, they feel lost or, I don't know, a lot of negative emotion. But I kind of prepared myself for that. And because of COVID and because of the timing, it was clearly the right decision at the time for me.

Isaac Oakeson: That's interesting. I'm just curious what your mindset was as you were going through that. So, all right. Well, why don't you tell us high-level what you're doing now with Beyond CAD, what that product is, and how it can help people in their industries?

Sam Lytle: Sure. And let me just quickly connect the dots on the naming. So, when we wanted to make a product at Civil FX, it was gonna be called Civil FX Vision, which was this visualization engine that engineers could do their own visualization. So I started Beyond CAD, the company, when I sold Civil FX. So now is Beyond CAD Vision. We just kind of changed the name.

Sam Lytle: And then we realized that was confusing because Beyond CAD was the company and Vision was the name. So we ended up just calling the product Beyond CAD, and then we launched another product this year called Beyond Typicals. And so, now, the publisher is Beyond Ware. So now, Beyondware, when I refer to that, that means the company, the publisher. And we have two products, one called Beyond CAD and one called Beyond Typicals.

Sam Lytle: So Beyond CAD is, if [inaudible] sort of Lumion or Twinmotion, it's that for transportation and civil. It is decidedly, not architecture. We don't have bookshelves and rugs and couches. We just have traffic signals and buildings and people and traffic control devices and payment markings and things like that. So we're aiming directly towards this industry. And it doesn't do modeling; it's in the product. You have to do the modeling in CAD software like Civil 3D or Microstation or Infraworks. You model it, you bring it into Beyond CAD, and then that's where you can add textures, add people, we have a traffic system.

Sam Lytle: And so basically, you can go from CAD design data to a video game and renders much quicker than any other workflow that is available.

Isaac Oakeson: From CAD to GTA.

Sam Lytle: Yes, yes. CAD to GTA in no time flat. Yes.

Isaac Oakeson: I think that's pretty awesome what it can do. Are there certain file types that it can accept? I imagine there's probably a list of what those things are, but it sounds like you also have a list of assets that are in the program. But I guess anything outside of that, you can develop, you can draw, you can do whatever you need to do and then import that in there so that you're getting the right heights and dimensions and really showing it the way you want it to, I guess is what I'm saying.

Sam Lytle: Nice. Yeah. I think you've figured it out. And anyone can see this at beyondware.com. And so, there are like the engineering features, which is like the roads, the cuts and fills, the sidewalks, the bridge structures, the solid portions of the project. Those are the things you're gonna import. And then everything else is what we call "context." So that would be like trees, people, textures, cars, power poles, light poles. All that other stuff you can add using the asset library within Beyond CAD, which has over 1,500 3D assets. So you just drag and place them on your project.

Sam Lytle: And then if you have a custom [inaudible], you could bring that in as well. And yeah, we support a lot of file types. We're almost done with hopefully with the DWG. And then we're working with Bentley on hopefully getting DGN support directly, natively supported as well. So yeah, we want as many options as possible for people to get their data into Beyond CAD and to be able to visualize it quickly.

Isaac Oakeson: That's awesome. So where do you see the future of beyond CAD? Where do you want this thing to go?

Sam Lytle: Yeah. I mean, ultimately, I've watched architecture, like I'd mentioned. And if you went back 15 years, they would outsource visualization. Like how we used to do with Civil FX, they would do something in AutoCAD or Revit or SketchUp. And then if they need visualization, they would hire it out to a visualization team. Or maybe they have an in-house visualization team that would use something like 3DS Max, maybe some Revit stuff. But then Lumion came around, and it was so fast and easy to do visualization using that software that it was like, "Oh, let's just do it ourselves." So now the architects were doing their own visualization because it was so quick and easy.

Sam Lytle: And so I'm hoping that that will be a transition in our industry. And it's still not the case. I mean, we're still new with Beyond CAD, but most of our early users are individuals that have done 3D visualization before. And so, what I'm hoping is that the software will continue to get better, will continue to gain users that give us a lot of feedback so that we can make it as good as possible. And then, at a certain point, hopefully less than five years from now, the industry will start to change, where engineers do their own visualization so that those using Civil 3D will do their own.

Sam Lytle: And now that's just not an industry standard. Visualization isn't part of the pipeline. Unless it's a major project, and then typically it's outsourced. So my goal is to continue making this software as good as possible and wait for the timing to continue to get better and better where engineers, hopefully, are just doing their own visualization and the industry will be changed the way architecture was.

Isaac Oakeson: I love it. You know, I come from the transmission industry, working with utilities. And I know this comes up frequently where they want a 3D visualization. And the software that we use is called PLS CAD, and that does do 3D renderings, but definitely not to the level of detail that you're getting with Beyond CAD. With trees and roads and all this awesome stuff that you can input there. So I think the market for it is also very big, not just transportation. Even in the utility world, I could see if transmission engineers could get in there and do their own visualization, it would go a long way with these public outreach meetings and displaying what the line's going to look like and, you know, potentially your backyard or wherever it's gonna land, and really help out. So yeah, I'm excited about where you're going with this. So it's good stuff.

Sam Lytle: Yeah. I didn't mention before, but we use unreal engine, which is the same technology as Fortnite and Rocket League. And you know, those that have kids really [inaudible] story on that. So, Epic is the game that makes Unreal Engine and Fortnite. And they made so much money with Fortnite that they decided to make a fund to give to developers of their game engine, which is called Unreal Engine. And it was called the Mega Grant Fund. And I do a lot of stuff on LinkedIn, and so they noticed some of the things I was doing and they reached out to me. They were like, "Hey, you should apply for part of this mega grant fund." And so I did it and, long story short, we got funding for --- It was actually a distracted driving virtual reality simulator. This was back in the Civil FX days.

Sam Lytle: And I was feeling guilty because my son, he was probably seven or eight at the time. He wanted to play Fortnite, and I was like the bad dad. That's like, "No, it's violent. And I know it's addictive. I'm kind of in this industry." And, his friends were all playing, so I felt bad. And so here they are, giving me this six-figure fund and I'm still not letting my son play Fortnite. So I'm starting to feel guilty. And so we delivered the distracted driving simulator that went pretty well. And they're like, "Oh, you guys did well. You should apply for another one. So I applied for another one, this time for what ultimately became Beyond CAD, and we got that money. And so now, basically I told my son, I was like, "Go fire up Fortnine." Like, "It's time." And he's been playing basically nonstop ever since. And now his little brother has joined him.

Sam Lytle: So, your point about, you know, there are other tools that do visualization in civil engineering, and then it might not be as highest quality. We're using unreal engine, which you can do photo realistic stuff. And so, we're leveraging the power of this other tool to make it so that you can make very realistic 3D visualization.

Isaac Oakeson: Oh, man. I would not hesitate to say that most engineers out there also play video games. I'm just going to say that. So, you know, I am positive that people know what unreal engine is, and I think it's neat that that's how you're utilizing this with the software.

Sam Lytle: Yeah. And they've been great. I mean, Epic has been so good supporting us. And like they said, "You know, this has no strings attached. We're not requiring equity in your company or all these things." And they've been true to their word. And now, even both of our products are distributed on the Epic Game Store, which has been really helpful on people being able to access it. So they've just been incredible to work with.

Isaac Oakeson: That's awesome. Wow. I had no idea they even had something like that that they were doing. So, good job.

Isaac Oakeson: So, what's a struggle that's going on? What's something that is kind of a struggle right now with Beyond CAD, kind of a pain point right now you're trying to overcome?

Sam Lytle: Well, I've never done a software company before. I've never been a publisher. And so I was really naive on what that would take. I mean, I've been a business owner. And so I was just like, "Oh, we'll make software. People will go put in their credit card information, and they'll download it, and we'll be happy." And it hasn't been like that at all. Like, it's been a nonstop battle of -- Distribution has been huge. It's like every engineering firm or public agency has different IT requirements.

Sam Lytle: And so we have our own launcher, but they're like, "Oh, Windows doesn't recognize your launcher and it's blocking it." And we're like, "Oh, well now it's in the Epic Game Store." And they're like, "Oh, well, gaming is a category that's blocked by our firewall." And I'm like, "Oh, well now you can download it as a zipped file." And they're like, "oh, well, now it doesn't know that."

Sam Lytle: And so it's just been one thing after another. And then, once they actually get it and they're like, "Oh, this is great. We've done the free trial. We want to buy it now." I'm like, "Okay, just put in your credit card information." They're like, "Oh, we don't do that. We need to do a purchase order. We need to work with a reseller. We need to accept, ACH or physical check." And so it's just been like a nonstop struggle of B2B software I just never imagined.

Sam Lytle: And so, now we're like almost a year in since our public outreach. And now I'm solving most of those problems. So, scaling has been slow for a lot of reasons, but that's been one of the big ones. And I'm hoping as we get more and more of these things solved that we'll be able to more quickly grow our numbers. Because a lot of our users, they love it. And as you know, like engineering firms, they typically have, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of other engineers. And so they're like, we want to spread this within our company. We're just trying to work with IT on how to best distribute it or how to pay for all these licenses and so on. So, getting resellers, distribution payments, like I just never imagined in this world.

Isaac Oakeson: You didn't know that was the pain point.

Sam Lytle: Nope.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. In my world, I can see how that's a problem, because we're always working with IT on some software issue and some server license and things of that nature and getting updates. So, interesting pain point that you have here.

Isaac Oakeson: I wanna ask you, as a civil engineer, I think it's amazing that you've been able to create something like this. But for engineers that want to be more creative, what suggestions do you have for them? Because I doubt that you're the only engineer out there that's found themselves into engineering that wants to be more on the creative side of that field. So, do you have any tips or advice if someone wanted to go that route?

Sam Lytle: If you wanna be like me, just quit your job. Just today. No, I think there's so much opportunity within our industry to be creative. And it may involve staying in your role or it may involve being in another role or another job. But like, my advice is just to, whenever there's opportunities, just raise your hand. Like, whatever it is. And you'll find more and more different opportunities to work on the same projects with the same people. And there've never been more tools to do these things. And I mean, stuff like what we have with Beyond CAD. Our second software, which is cheaper and easier to use, it's called Beyond Typicals. You can just drag and drop road sections and make, you know, road sections in minutes.

Sam Lytle: And so, just volunteer to do a lot of things, test out a lot of different software programs, and it won't take long to kind of find your niche. And that's not just advice for creative people. That's advice for anyone. Like do a lot of things, find the thing that that really makes you excited, and then just hone in on that niche. And you can do that probably within your own company on the projects you're already working on.

Isaac Oakeson: Good point. I like hearing that. Yeah. I just think there's a big drive right now for people to be creative. And I think that COVID probably helped influence that as well as people were remote, working from home. And many people still are remote.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, Sam, a couple other questions I have for you. Would you have any tips for someone that was just starting out their career in civil engineering, knowing that you started on this journey? Any tips for those just starting the civil engineering journey?

Sam Lytle: Sure. I mean, here's a very practical one. Start a LinkedIn profile today, connect with people every single day, and build your network. And that same advice holds true for going to actual conferences. Like, I go to APWA or ASCE or anything like that. Networking has always been something valuable. But LinkedIn today, in our industry, it's just the best way to connect with people. So if you're just starting out, in five years, you're gonna be so connected with so many people that you're gonna have more opportunities than you know what to do with.

Sam Lytle: So definitely network. As I mentioned before, try a lot of different things. And really hone in on a niche. Like, sometimes you'll hear people that are civil generalists or, you know, "I can do anything." But most jobs, they're not looking for that. Most jobs are looking for something very specific. And like, for me, with my company right now, I need programmers, but I don't need any programmers. I don't want a generalness. I don't want a full-stack developer. I want someone with C++ Unreal Engine experience. And so hone in on your niche. Especially now that more things are remote, you're gonna have more competition. And the more niched you are, the more you'll stand out.

Isaac Oakeson: Good points. I really like that. Sam, is there any training for Beyond CAD that you've developed? Or is that part of the software that you've got going on? If people wanna learn more about it, dip their toes in it, start learning about it, is there some training that you guys have set up for it?

Sam Lytle: Sure. If you go to our website and click on the tutorials page, you can go to beyondwear.com/tutorials and see those videos. Unfortunately, it's mostly me, which is like -- You know, it's painful to listen to me talk that long. But, as we grow, we will get more voices involved in the training. But yeah, the training is all free and it's available for those looking for the software or those using it. And I'm in the middle of creating a bunch more for both of our products.

Isaac Oakeson: Awesome. Okay. Good deal. Well, this has been fun. I think what you have is awesome. I'm excited. I can't wait to help promote it as much as I can. But Sam, is there a good way for our audience to connect with you?

Sam Lytle: Yeah. I mean, go to beyondware.com and check that out. And also connect with me on LinkedIn, linkedin.com/in/samlytle. And I should be the one that jumps up. It's Sam Lytle on there. So I connect with people all the time. And feel free to ask me questions. I haven't done a lot of civil engineering in my career, but I will answer any questions, especially if they're related to entrepreneurship or 3D visualization.

Isaac Oakeson: I love it. Okay. Well, thanks for doing this with me. I'm excited for you and we'll catch you on another one.

Sam Lytle: Thanks, Isaac.

Isaac Oakeson: All right. See you.