Ready for a free master class on post-tensioned (PT) concrete? Today, Michael Hopper, P.E., an Associate Partner at LERA Consulting Structural Engineers, elaborates on his professional experience designing award-winning post-tensioned concrete structures to teach you everything about it.
Tune in to Learn:
- What prestressed concrete is and what makes it different from other structural systems
- Why pre-tensioned and post-tensioned concrete are both “prestressed concrete”
- Common applications of pre-tensioned and post-tensioned concrete
- How pre-tensioning and post-tensioning are achieved
- The structural and construction benefits of using post-tensioned concrete
- How void formers and post-tensioning can reduce construction effort and cost
- How post-tensioned concrete can help you reduce your building skin costs
- One aspect contributing more to global warming than concrete — and how PT can help
- When to use grouted and ungrouted post-tension systems
- What's the SE 2050 Commitment for structural engineering firms?
- Michael’s #1 advice for young engineers just getting started
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Transcript of Show
You can get our transcript of the show below!
Isaac Oakeson: What's going on, everybody? Isaac here with Civil Engineering Academy, jumping on real quick to talk about another fun podcast episode. And I'm excited to share this one with you, if I can even talk. Today I bring Michael Hopper, he's with LERA, which is a consulting engineering firm, structural firm, that deals with structures. And specifically, he specializes in post-tension concrete structures. He also teaches at Princeton on this topic and we just had a fun conversation talking about post-tension structures and all its forms.
Isaac Oakeson: I also bring my brother Mark on with us because Mark deals with the construction side of this quite heavily. And I thought it would be fun for all of us to get in the same room and just kind of talk about all these things. Some of the projects that Michael has worked on have been award-winning. So he definitely is very heavily involved in this community. and Mark and Michael, when they get together, this is their language. They love talking about post-tension structures and everything to do with them.
Isaac Oakeson: So whether you're just starting your structural engineering career, or you're deep into it, there's definitely gonna be something here that you're gonna learn from. And I think you're really gonna enjoy it. So, thanks for Mike and Mark for joining me today. I think you're gonna enjoy this. And it's coming up right after this.
Isaac Oakeson: All right! Mike, how's things going? Welcome to the Civil Engineering Academy Podcast.
Michael Hopper: Hey guys. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here with you.
Isaac Oakeson: We haven't really done three people here before, so this is fun. I wanna bring my brother mark on, too.
Mark Oakeson: Hey, everybody.
Isaac Oakeson: Mark is definitely heavy in the construction world, and he's excited about what you do and what you have going on. So I guess before we dive into things, though, could you just give us a little bit more about your own background how you found yourself into what you're doing now, every day?
Michael Hopper: Yeah, sure. I'd be happy to. I guess if I start back at the beginning, I was always very interested in architecture and in building as a kid. And like most engineers, I was pretty good at math. So that led me to pursue the technical side of architecture, where I went to Penn State and studied architectural engineering. And while I was there, you know, we study structural engineering, construction management, electrical engineering, lighting, mechanical design for buildings, and obviously architecture. And I, you know, decided pretty quickly that my heart was in structural engineering and I wanted to spend my career designing world-class architecture with architects.
Michael Hopper: And so right after school, I started my career here at LERA in New York. And I've been here ever since. I've been pretty fortunate to have had the opportunity to work on some really unique projects that have post-tension concrete. And I've found a niche with that system. And it really started with a single project. It was a really, really unique application of post-tension concrete right out of school. And that project really made me question everything that's done in a normal post-tension concrete building, and question every one of those decisions. And it just required us to really dive deep into that realm. And I got a lot of experience in a really, really quick period of time. And it was a lot of fun. So that was how it started.
Isaac Oakeson: Did you have any influence in your life? A father, an uncle, a cousin that was already kind of in this world doing that stuff?
Michael Hopper: So, I didn't -- My dad was in the service. He was in the Navy. So I was a military and we traveled around quite a bit. My mom's in accounting. I'm an only child. So I didn't have an engineer who influenced me growing up, but I just loved to build. And my parents really, really encouraged it and always pushed me to excel at math and science and, you know, just pursue my passions. And they've been really, really supportive.
Isaac Oakeson: That's awesome. Yeah. Well, I know in my world, Mark was the first one to go into civil engineering. So he kind of paved the way for me to follow that.
Mark Oakeson: I was the trailblazer a little bit. Yeah. That's what big brothers do, right?
Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. That's what they do. Well Mike, I know a lot of people may, at least our audience, may not be into the structural world per se. But they do find what you do, I still think, fascinating. So could you do a little bit of background in explaining what maybe prestressed concrete is and how that contrasts with maybe other structural systems?
Michael Hopper: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So I think it helps to start with the really basic fundamentals of just concrete. And that is that concrete is great in compression and not so great, or terrible, in tension. And the concept of prestressing is really simple, and it just pre-compresses the concrete so that, when you're gonna add load to it later, the concrete will remain in compression, or it will have minimal amounts of tension as allowed by the building code. And so, prestressing is a really, really practical way to use concrete in its most efficient form, which is in compression with little bits of tension where we're permitted.
Michael Hopper: Other structural systems don't really have that load offsetting effect. You can prestress steel, you can prestress timber, but compared to just reinforced concrete or conventional structural steel or mass timber, prestressed concrete is really the only system that has the offsetting effects, or the load balancing effects, as we call it, when you're designing.
Isaac Oakeson: Excellent. And how does pre-tension and post-tension both fit under the same umbrella of prestressed concrete?
Michael Hopper: Yeah, that's right. That's a good point. ACI doesn't really differentiate between pre-tensioning or post-tensioning the steel. And just to clarify for your listeners, we're talking about when the steel is stressed with respect to when the concrete is cast. And so, the concrete doesn't really care how you stress it. So ACI, the code ACI 318, the code that we use to design building structures, concrete building structures, the allowable stresses for concrete remain the same, whether you're pre-stressed -- I'm sorry, pre-tensioned or post-tensioned. However, there are differences in the allowable stresses in the steel. That's necessary for those different types of systems. So that's how the code looks at it. And really, yeah, it's pretty simple the way it's organized.
Isaac Oakeson: Great answer. Yeah.
Mark Oakeson: Can I jump in here a little bit, Isaac?
Isaac Oakeson: Oh, yeah. Go for it.
Mark Oakeson: Yeah. And the people that I deal with, Mike, I mean, it's a kind of a source of confusion sometimes. Because, you know, it's pre-stressed, but then you talk about post-tensioning and pre-tensioning. And the prestressed is actually, that name comes from what you're actually doing to the structural system. Like you had mentioned, you're trying to keep most of the tension out of that cross-sectional area of the structural member that you're prestressing, and keeping everything in compression as much as the code allows.
Mark Oakeson: But I've found that it's a little bit confusing because I've heard people -- You know, they'll say "prestressed" when they mean "pre-tensioning". Post-tensioning seems to be, you know, fairly clear. But it's a little counterintuitive, at least with the people that I deal with on a day-to-day basis sometimes, because that term, that all encompassing term "prestress", sometimes gets confused with the post-tensioning and the pre-tensioning.
Michael Hopper: Yeah. That's a really good point, Mark. And I agree with that wholeheartedly. I'm a big fan of labels, and I teach at Princeton University in the fall. I teach the concrete design course there to the undergraduate students. And, you know, we go into prestressed concrete and we talk about all the different types of way to achieve the prestress and what the prestress actually means. And you're just pre-stressing, or pre-loading, the member before you're applying your loads, right?
Mark Oakeson: Exactly. Like, with a typical structural member, if you're building a structure, whatever that is, there's no stresses in that thing until it either assumes its own self-weight, or you actually impose some kind of a live load on top of it, right? Whereas with prestressing, we're actually stressing that cross-sectional area to take advantage of the material properties. So anyway, this right.
Michael Hopper: Yeah. I like to use the term "precompress" instead of "prestress". Not technically accurate in some instances, but I like to avoid the confusion that you talk about. And when you're talking to students, to young engineers, like your audience here, I think it's really important to be clear with the labels that we choose. And you know, maybe the code doesn't always have those names, right? But the concepts I think are really, really important to understand.
Mark Oakeson: I love that pre-compression term. That is a lot better. That's more intuitive.
Michael Hopper: Sure, sure.
Mark Oakeson: Yep.
Isaac Oakeson: Well, start changing the code.
Mark Oakeson: Yeah. Use your influence, Mike.
Michael Hopper: I think the code is fantastic. The code is great. I just think that we, as engineers and as a community, can do a better job to demystify post-tensioning, pre-stressing, pre-tensioning, whatever you want to call it. I will tell you that that is a concept that, as someone who has tried to mentor young engineers here at LERA, that those concepts can be misunderstood. And it's universal across our industry of structural engineers. At least that's my opinion. That's my experience.
Mark Oakeson: That's mine too. Mine too.
Isaac Oakeson: Makes sense. Well, why don't you give us a sample of where pre-tensioned structural concrete is typically used?
Michael Hopper: Yeah, that's a great question. It's most commonly used in precast applications, right? And precasters are manufacturing hundreds, sometimes thousands, of individual pre-stressed members. The most efficient way to do it when you're building them in a factory-like setting is by pre-tensioning. And to understand what that looks like, it helps to see how a pre-cast yard is set up. But I'll try and describe it.
Michael Hopper: Picture a 300- to 400-foot long stressing bed that is designed to cast multiple members at one time. And at either end of that casting bed, you'll have an abutment. And they'll have strands that are attached to those abutments and they'll stretch them out over the 300 or 400 feet, however long the bed is. They will apply the appropriate level of stress to those strands. They'll all elongate, right? That's the pre-tensioning part. And then they'll come and they'll build that concrete element around it. They'll lay all the reinforcement, do all the inspections, cast the concrete, and then when that concrete reaches its required strength, they'll release the stress on the abutments. The tension will be transferred from a tension force in the strand into a compression force into the concrete through a mechanical bond between the strand and the concrete. And so that's the way that we most commonly see pre-stressed or pre-tensioned concrete applied.
Isaac Oakeson: Excellent. And what about post-tensioned structural concrete? Where is that being used?
Michael Hopper: Post-tensioned concrete is most commonly used in the field, right? Where you're building cast-in-place concrete elements. And just to kind of give you a sense of scale, it depends what type of system you're using, but in general, the jacking force on a PT strand is equivalent to about the weight of nine or 10 cars. That's a massive force. So if you're building up on formwork, you know, on top of a building, how do you resist that force? What do you jack against? You can't build an abutment in an efficient manner like you can in a precasters facility, right? So, the most efficient way that we do it here is we jack against the face of the concrete. And we wait until the concrete reaches a certain strength, right? And then we go ahead and we set those jacks and pull those strands.
Michael Hopper: The other benefit that you get when you're building cast-in-place concrete, it's cast monolithically, right? All of your spans, all of your bays are all connected together. So we really rely on continuity from element to element. And to really capture those benefits, you need to drape your strands. And so, if you're laying your strands in concrete before they're stressed, they're not straight, right? We can drape them to whatever profile we want that's beneficial for the structure. And so we can get creative and tune them, place them where it makes sense. And then cast the concrete and then stress those tendons. Whereas in a precast application or pre-tensioned application, when you pull those strands, they're straight, right? So you really don't get the benefit of draping up and down as needed in your structural element.
Isaac Oakeson: I like it. Good answers.
Mark Oakeson: And then, Mike, the other element that sometimes happens with pre-tensioning is that strand is, like you mentioned, actually bonded to the concrete. A lot of the systems that are post-tensioned, there's actually a sheathing that the strand is in that lets the strand slide relative to the concrete after it's hardened. And they're stressing it; they're post-tensioning it. That strand is able to slide relative to the concrete, right?
Michael Hopper: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Mark Oakeson: Yeah. And so the stress is really kind of -- They get transferred into the ends of the concrete member, if that's a slab, or a beam, whatever's being post-tensioned. And then, as you say, there's that drape in the tendon that lifts up since -- You know, they usually drop that towards the mid span of whatever structural member is being post-tensioned, right? So that it can work.
Mark Oakeson: You're trying to design that to kind of pick up he dead load, or the weight, of whatever structural element you're working with. The slab or the beam, typically. Those tendons are designed to pick up essentially the dead load of the system and kind of transfer it into the column. And so, because of that prestress, it makes that system a lot more efficient as far as spans, right? You can shallow up your depths and achieve longer spans in a more efficient manner because you're kind of picking up that dead load and transferring it into the vertical members before you're actually putting the structure into service, right?
Michael Hopper: Yeah. No, that's absolutely right. And the way I describe it is that, you're right in that we're balancing, typically just for the self-weight of the slab or the beam or whatever that element is. Sometimes it's 80%. Sometimes we go up to a hundred percent. In extreme cases, we'll balance more than that. But the way I describe it is the structure feels weightless, right? It doesn't feel the effects of its own self-weight.
Michael Hopper: I like analogies, especially with my students at Princeton. But the one that I think about for post-tension concrete is, if you're out in the rain holding an umbrella, most of the time you feel the weight the umbrella, right? You feel the rain, you feel the weight of it. But every now and then, the wind will blow, it'll gust, it'll put some uplift effects on that umbrella. And for a moment it'll feel weightless. Like, right before you can feel it pulling away, it'll feel weightless.
Michael Hopper: That's the effect of post-tensioning on a structural element. And you, as the designer, as the engineer, you can control how much uplift you get. And the two tools that you have are the force that you put into the element, the number of strands, and the drape that you pick. So, yeah,
Mark Oakeson: Yeah. No, that's a great analogy. I like that.
Isaac Oakeson: What kind of spans can we get? I'm just curious. I don't design building structures, but what kind of spans can you get doing this?
Michael Hopper: Oh well, you can really design anything you want. That's the beauty of post-tension concrete. That's why I happen to love it so much. There's really no limit to what you can do. If you can form it, you can build it.
Michael Hopper: The spans from the projects that I've personally designed and worked on, I mean, the first project that I told you guys about, the one that kicked off my career, it was a really special project. And we pulled the columns back 30 feet from the perimeter of the building. So we had 30-foot cantilevers all around. And on the corner, the diagonal, that would be about a 40-foot cantilever. And then we had clear spans, or interior spans, of up to 72 feet. That's a pretty extreme example.
Michael Hopper: But normally what do you see, you know, residential projects, you might push it up to 30 feet. We have a residential project right now in Washington, DC, that just topped out and we're pushing that to 50 feet in a residential application. So really, you can be quite flexible with the spans. Post-tensioning gives you a lot of room to increase that.
Michael Hopper: Or say you don't wanna increase your spans. You can thin up your slab, as Mark said. You can thin up your beams and have a much shallower member and save some material quantities, which as we know, is a good thing to do.
Mark Oakeson: Money.
Michael Hopper: Well, it's money. But also for the environment too, right? We know that the embodied carbon in concrete construction is a big deal, right? 8% of global emissions, global carbon emissions, are due to concrete. The cement production, particularly. So anything we can do to carve out volume in our building structures, bridge structures, infrastructure, is gonna help out with global warming, for sure.
Michael Hopper: And you know, there's other technologies that we pair with post-tension concrete. We like to insert voids. We use void formers on our jobs to save some additional weight, and there's other benefits that come from that. But yeah, one of the main benefits of the post-tensioned concrete, or even prestressed concrete, is just the volume reduction that you get n your concrete. And you feel that throughout the rest of your structure, right? Your columns are lighter, your footings can be smaller, you put less stress on the foundations, and so forth.
Michael Hopper: So there's those benefits. There's also, Mark, you probably can speak to this better than me, but the construction benefits. After you're done stressing your strands in a post-tension concrete application, your concrete is literally lifting up off of your formwork. You can strip your formwork at that moment. Whereas a reinforced concrete system, you need to wait until you achieve a higher strength concrete before you can go strip your shoring. And also we have less rebar in post-tension concrete design than a conventional concrete design. So it cuts down on congestion and challenges that can come with that.
Mark Oakeson: And so, Mike, if I can insert a comment here now, when you're talking about those longer spans that you've achieved in residential applications, that is using these void forms that you're talking about to lighten up the slab?
Michael Hopper: We've used void forms paired with post-tensioning on two projects in the US. They're the only two projects in the US that I know of that have paired a void former with post-tensioning. It's not not a very well understood system yet, and I think there's huge potential for it. We haven't used those in a residential application. We've used them for thicker slabs. Residential slabs, as you know, are quite thin. But we're able to really leverage the benefit of the void and the post-tensioning and thicker slabs. So we've used them where we have long spans and heavy loads.
Michael Hopper: It saves money and it saves time when compared to a beam and slab system. You just build flat formwork. Really simple formwork, as flat as you can make it.
Mark Oakeson: Simple formwork.
Michael Hopper: Exactly. And that's about 50% of your costs and concrete construction, right?
Mark Oakeson: Have you -- Oh, go ahead.
Michael Hopper: No, I was just gonna say, and then you lay the PT and lay the voids out. And you are casting a flat slab versus a up and down beam.
Mark Oakeson: Yeah. Which is Nirvana in the construction world. If you can make that soft, nice, and flat everywhere, we love that, right?
Michael Hopper: That's the name of the game. That's the name of the game. If you look at all of these projects that we've done, maybe you can share some of these in your show notes afterwards, the unique applications of post-tensioned concrete. At first glance, they look very complicated. But if you break it down into their simple elements, it's just "how can we make this formwork as flat as possible?"
Mark Oakeson: Yeah. And we find that about a third of the cost of the structural frame is attributable to just the formwork. And so, if you can streamline that it translates into big cost savings.
Michael Hopper: For sure.
Mark Oakeson: Mike, what comparisons have you seen? So as we're talking about being efficient, being environmentally sensitive as well, we -- When we look at post-tension concrete, and a lot of times we're making comparisons to comparable structural steel systems, and they're always deeper. The structural system is always deeper than a post-tension system. And it actually, you know, adds to the building skin costs. You know, whether you've got glazing, maybe you got, you know, composite aluminum panels, or whatever your exterior skin system is, we found that post-tension systems save on building skin costs. Does that ring true to you?
Michael Hopper: Absolutely. Yeah, certainly it does. And, you know, you think about not only building skin costs, but that's, you know, typically the two biggest cost components on project we see are structure and the skin. And of course mechanical in some instances. So yeah, if you can create a shallower structure, you're gonna save big dollars in skin. And that holds true to all of your other interior finishes as well. But also your heating and cooling costs over the life cycle of the building, right? If you have a shorter building, you are heating and cooling less volume.
Michael Hopper: So it's one of the benefits that the post-tensioning industry has tried to highlight for a while. And that might be something that's overlooked right now. Right now the industry is really talking about embodied carbon and all of the carbon that's associated with the initial construction. And we know that concrete contributes about 8% to the total global warming each year. But if you look at the energy that goes into heating and cooling our buildings, it's a lot more than that. It's of an order magnitude of 30%.
Mark Oakeson: Yes. Look at the life cycle of an entire building and the heating and cooling cost, it's more than that right? Is that your --
Michael Hopper: Well, yeah. That's where I'm going. As an industry, we need to be thoughtful, we need to be holistic about how we're approaching this problem and how we're gonna solve it, right? We can't just look at embodied carbon, because clearly, concrete systems have substantially more embodied carbon than, say, a mass timber system. But mass timber systems are also, in some cases other than residential applications, are deeper than concrete. And so, not only its cost go up when you're talking about skin, but you're heating and cooling more volume. And we just need to consider that in these analyses that we're doing, these life cycle analyses, and be smart about it.
Mark Oakeson: Yeah. So have you done any formal energy modeling between opposing systems? Contrasting systems?
Michael Hopper: We are in the process of doing that right now. We are a SE 2050 signatory firm where the Structural Engineering Institute in collaboration with ASCE structural engineers are now being really mindful about the embodied carbon that is in our structures. And how can we do better? Right? That's what we're really about here. How can we continue to get better? And we're tracking that data; it's all in progress. But we have some folks in house here at LERA that are working on it and have been doing that for a while. And hopefully we'll have some data to publish soon.
Mark Oakeson: Cool.
Isaac Oakeson: Awesome.
Mark Oakeson: That's really neat.
Isaac Oakeson: I guess to kind of round this out, you talked about some voids. One of the questions we had come up with is about grouting. And sometimes we see where you have grouted or ungrouted post-tension systems. Why the difference? What are they used for? When we do that?
Michael Hopper: So I'll tell you what my understanding is historically, and then I'll tell you when we use one or the other. Historically, grouted systems, or bonded systems as ACI calls it, have been used in infrastructure. And that is generally because the grout has served as a better protector against corrosion. So a lot of DOTs will require that you use a bonded system in bridge applications, right? Where you're outside you're exposed to the elements. As opposed to building, when most buildings you're protected, you're inside, they allow you to go with the unbonded system, which is not grouted, which is the system that Mark described earlier with the grease cables inside of the sheathing that are anchored at their ends only.
Michael Hopper: We tend to use each of those where they're most beneficial for our particular project. So we've used -- Now, we only do buildings. We're not in the infrastructure world. But we've done buildings with both bonded and unbonded systems. Unbonded is by far the most common in the United States. And those systems now are much better than they were back when they were first used, when they did run into some corrosion issues. Now the systems are fully encapsulated and they're greased inside of that so water is not getting into those.
Michael Hopper: But we use bonded for a couple reasons in buildings. The first reason is if the global stability of the building has to do with, or relies upon, the post-tensioning. So picture if we have a leaning column, or if we have an arch. If we have an arch in a building, the base of that arch, there's a thrust, how do you resist that thrust? We like to use post-tensioning. You know, other things too, but post-tensioning is really effective. Well, if the global stability of the building is dependent upon that arch being stable, you better make sure that the post-tensioning is well protected. And bonded is the way to do that because it acts more like rebar, and then it's bonded along its entire length. So if you were to cut that tendon in the middle, that load would redistribute. Whereas if it's an unbonded system, if you were to cut that tendon in the middle, the strand is gone because it's not bonded to the system in any way.
Michael Hopper: So that's one instance. The other instance is for detailing reasons. So, bonded systems tend to bundle strands together at their anchor point. So you might get four strands in one anchor. You can go all the way up to, you know, 30 strands plus in one anchor. And the beauty of that is that you get all of your PT bundled at one location. So if you have a lot of congestions, say you have curtain wall anchors that are being attached nearby, or anything like that, say rebar for other things, other connection points, it helps to detail away congestion. And that's another time that we use it.
Michael Hopper: Other than that, it's always gonna be unbonded because that's more economical. And there's also been research done and it's been proven that, in a progressive collapse scenario, an unbonded tendon is better than a bonded tendon. Because, say in a seismic event, if there were to be a slab-column joint that failed, those strands can act as a catenary draped over the top of the column that remained. And I've seen photos of that. But yeah, that's the concept.
Mark Oakeson: It wasn't [inaudible]? Wasn't it Northridge earthquake, [inaudible] that?
Michael Hopper: I think, yeah. The photos I've seen are from Northridge.
Mark Oakeson: And now the code prescribes that there's at least two tendons above every column. Yeah.
Michael Hopper: Yeah. That's right, exactly. The call them integrity tendons. And they're super effective.
Isaac Oakeson: Wow! Well, before I switch gears, Mark, you have any more questions that you would like to ask?
Mark Oakeson: I know we're up against our time limit here a little bit. I could talk to Mike all day long.
Isaac Oakeson: Okay.
Mark Oakeson: But, no. I'm a big, big fan of post-tension concrete. I've just seen the benefits. And it's cool to see somebody else or talk to somebody else that recognizes a lot of those same things that I've seen during my career.
Isaac Oakeson: That loves it as much as Mark does.
Mark Oakeson: Yeah! It's cool.
Michael Hopper: It's great. Yeah.
Isaac Oakeson: Well Mike, last few little questions. I'd just love to pick your brain around a little bit. What advice would you have for someone just starting a structural engineering journey? Their journey into this world?
Michael Hopper: Yeah. Well, I think structural engineering, or any engineering career, it can be very broad, right? The topics can be very broad. You can go down many different career paths. But my suggestion is to first identify and then focus on what you're passionate about, right? For me, that was helping architects design world-class architecture. And I figured that out early while I was still in school, and I could actually pick the courses I wanted to take that would help me fulfill that goal, right?
Michael Hopper: I could choose research projects, or my thesis projects could be about that, right? They could be about architecture, structural engineering, and integrating the two together in a really thoughtful way. You know, internships that you pick. So for me, I'm a big fan of identifying your goals early and focusing those efforts on them. So that's my advice. Ultimately chase what you're passionate about, but really identify those goals early and focus on them.
Isaac Oakeson: Great. Great thoughts. I totally agree with you. Well, thanks for doing this, Mike. Where can people reach out to if they wanna connect with you?
Michael Hopper: Yeah, guys,.thanks. This was really great to be a part of. I love what you're doing here on the show. I love talking about the great work that engineers are doing, and you guys have a ton of enthusiasm and it's really great to see that.
Michael Hopper: But if people wanna connect with me, they can find me on LinkedIn. Pretty easy to find there. You can connect with me there and shoot me a message if want to.
Isaac Oakeson: We'll point them that way.
Michael Hopper: Very good.
Isaac Oakeson: Well, thanks Mike. Thanks for doing this. And we'll catch you on another one. See you.
Michael Hopper: Thanks guys. This is great. Take care.
Mark Oakeson: Thank you, Mike.
Michael Hopper: Bye.
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