Isaac Oakeson: What is going on, everybody? Isaac here with Civil Engineering Academy. Excited to share another podcast episode with you. We appreciate the likes, the comments, everything that you do to get this shared. Hey, why don't you share it with another civil engineering friend? That would be very helpful for us. And I think you have civil engineering friends, don't you? You know, give it a share. See what they like about it. We do appreciate it.

Isaac Oakeson: I'm excited today. I bring on the founders of shingle. The website is shingleit.com. Aaron Klimisch, who is a co-founder with Wes Turecheck. And they both have this brain child. They had this idea that engineers wanna work remote and start their own personal brand. And how do we do that? And so in this episode, we talk about how shingle formed and really what it does to connect engineers that want to do work on the side, or full-time as a contractor, or as their own personal brand or company, to get connected with firms that are out there and really do some great engineering work while making money.

Isaac Oakeson: So, shingle is a great idea. It's a great company. And I'm excited to share it with you. We talk about the goals of the company, how it started. We also talk about the wins that they've had and really a lot of other questions that you may have on your mind as we talk about shingle and what it does for engineers. So I'm excited to share that with you. All this fun stuff is gonna be coming up right after this.

Isaac Oakeson: All right. What is going on? Wes and Aaron, thank you for joining the Civil Engineering Academy Podcast. I'm excited to talk about shingle and what you do. Thanks for joining me today.

Aaron Klimisch: You are welcome. We're thrilled to be here.

Wes Turecheck: Yeah. Thanks for having us.

Isaac Oakeson: Excellent. I know we've done a lot of chatting already, but I wanted to make sure we actually capture what we're talking about. So I guess before we dive into what shingle is, how it works, and things of that nature, I would love to know a little bit more about your individual backgrounds in engineering, why you chose that field. How did we get here? I guess, it's the question. How did we get here? So Wes, why don't you go first and let us know a little bit about your background in engineering? Why you chose that field?

Wes Turecheck: Sure. The easy parts of it is graduated the masters in civil engineering with structural focus. Why'd I choose that? I don't know. I took things apart as a child every day and liked to see how things work, liked to build stuff. Engineering seemed like a good choice.

Isaac Oakeson: Any family influence? Parents, counsins?

Wes Turecheck: No, no. I had a grandpa who's an electrical. But other than that, no real engineers in the family. So that's what I always assumed I would be doing.

Isaac Oakeson: Cool. So structural engineering.

Wes Turecheck: Structural engineering. Yes. Particularly my background has been power generation. Little bit of transmission, substations, heavy industrial, and then the campus facilities. Piping, lots of pipe supports.

Isaac Oakeson: Good deal. That's my line of work. The utility world. Good. And Aaron, how about you?

Aaron Klimisch: Like Wes, I'm a structural engineer as well. I've been in the industry for about 20 years. I've worked for several firms throughout my career. A couple large firms in the US and then one very large firm in Germany. Started out much like everybody else on the typical track, you know? All design work for a variety of projects early in my career. And then I got my PE and moved into, you know, lead engineer role and into project management prior to starting shingle.

Aaron Klimisch: I chose the field because, unlike Wes, many members of my family pursued engineering and as a young boy, I saw that they appeared to be very successful. And so, as I got older and had to make a decision in terms of a career -- I know this sounds sort of bad, but I don't think I'm alone. Honestly, I was just looking for the biggest bang for my buck in terms of a starting salary and only having to do a four-year degree. So that was one of my main motivations. And I was good at math and science academically. So everyone's like, "Yeah, you should be an engineer, just like your uncle who drives a Corvette."

Isaac Oakeson: Making the money.

Aaron Klimisch: Making money. Actually I really looked up to him, still do. And he seemed to just kind of have this life that I thought looked really cool.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, I think this is an interesting topic about careers and money and civil engineering. Because I think, in general, civil engineers can make a great career and can do very decent. You know, you'll be comfortable. But I think, unless you're maybe being creative or doing something else on the side, it's hard to really move the needle on that potential to make even more. You kind of hit a ceiling, I think, in the civil engineering world. And that makes it a little hard.

Wes Turecheck: Yeah. You really need to pair that engineering with business.

Isaac Oakeson: Exactly. Well, let's jump into shingle. So, tell me a little bit about shingle and how that started.

Aaron Klimisch: I really have been saying this a lot, so I'm gonna try to make it very concise. You know, I always struggled with work being tied to location. I mean, this is from day one. And early in my career, I was living in, or actually working in San Antonio, Texas, but was living in Austin, and was commuting back and forth. And there are several reasons for that; we won't get into that. But the main reason was I didn't wanna change the firm that I was working for in San Antonio. It was great. Loved the people that I worked with. And I didn't wanna switch jobs before getting my PE.

Aaron Klimisch: I was commuting back and forth. This was 2005. And the issue I ran into was that I was commuting for three years and it really, really was horrible. And I was like, "Gosh!" You know, I was using STAAD. You know, my main job was basically just design. I was using STAAD primarily. So I wanted to work from Austin and still work for the firm in San Antonio. Well, there was an immediate "No". So that was sort of the spark of shingle.

Aaron Klimisch: And, you know, let's fast forward 15 years. I found myself in the same exact situation in Germany. I've been working for a firm in Germany. I quit that position and quickly found out that all my potential income was only in the US. And unlike Austin and San Antonio, I couldn't make that commute very well. So I started a consultancy and got some clients actually fairly quickly. So I was working for US clients while living in Germany, and quickly realized that this should be a business for other people just like me. You know, that work independently, have a lot of experience or enough experience to work independently, and make great money and live where they wanna live. So that is really the basis of shingle.

Isaac Oakeson: Wow. That's awesome! Let's hear Wez's side.

Wes Turecheck: Sure. My experience wasn't related to commuting, but you know, as I moved through my career from, you know, design engineer, lead engineer to PM, I got really deep into kind of the efficiency side of it. The money side of it, forecasting, and, I guess, you know, kind of work levels at the firm and how can we do that better without getting a name for ourselves as a hire-and-fire firm based on each job. And it's like you almost need resources that you can effectively turn on and off, because not every task that we're doing is, I hate to say it, but super critical, you know? There's some things that just need to be done.

Wes Turecheck: There are many things that are, you know, critical parts of the project of engineering that you definitely want your lead engineers to do. But there is some other work that, you know, either EITs or somebody can do that you just need more people to do it. So it's just kind of looking at it as, you know, how do we get those additional resources even for, like, a smaller firm that just really can help them move to the next level?

Aaron Klimisch: Right.

Isaac Oakeson: And you two worked at the same place, right? That's how you connected with each other?

Aaron Klimisch: Yeah, initially. But when I was in Germany and I sort of had the initial idea, I reached out to Wes. Wes was actually the -- You know, I had a list of people, but Wes was at the top. I don't know why. No, Wes was at the top because he has a similar personality to me in terms of wanting to change things and also not being scared to take a risk to step out there.

Wes Turecheck: Yeah. Knowing there's a better way to do it.

Aaron Klimisch: Knowing there's a better way. And just having that mentality like, "Hey, we may fail miserably." We're both used to the complete failure.

Isaac Oakeson: Let's go for it.

Aaron Klimisch: But, no. I think when you're really gonna do something like we've done, you need that risk-taking personality, especially at the early stages. And Wes was actually the first guy I called, you know? And we started it basically from there. It was like, "Hey man, think about this. What about if we did this?" And it wasn't too much longer that I was on a plane actually to Denver and we sketched it out. Remember that Wes? 8.5''x11'' pieces of paper in his spare bedroom. All the screens and the wire frame. And, yeah.

Isaac Oakeson: I think that's how the best ideas start.

Aaron Klimisch: Yeah. Yeah.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, I know a lot of our listeners may not know what shingle is. But Wes, high-level, what is shingle doing for engineering and drafting? What are the services?

Wes Turecheck: So, shingle is effectively kind of a marketplace between firms and, as we call them, independent engineers consultants. So consultants would bid on projects or tasks that a firm would put on the platform. So as an engineer, you know, you are your own business. You're a subcontractor to the firm, you know? It's not a temp agency. We're not, you know, finding engineers for firms, right? More of that open, you know -- Well, in this case business-to-business marketplace.

Isaac Oakeson: I like it

Aaron Klimisch: Right.

Isaac Oakeson: More and more, you hear about personal branding too. And as you get engineers that really know what they're doing and want to look at other ways to make additional revenue, I think it's a great idea to get on there.

Wes Turecheck: Yeah. That's the whole thing. You're selling yourself, you know? It's effectively taking your LinkedIn profile and what's in there, and that along with your proposal for the particular task, that's what you're selling.

Isaac Oakeson: Awesome.

Wes Turecheck: Make yourself valuable.

Isaac Oakeson: I like it. So, I know we talked about this a little bit earlier, but for our listeners, how do you envision an engineer that may work for a company still being able to do this? Or is that just left up to them to figure out? What issues do you see around that? Maybe Aaron or Wes, which --

Aaron Klimisch: Wes, you can take it.

Wes Turecheck: I'll take the beginning of this one. The quick answer, not the full answer, is, yeah. It is left up to the user to kind of police themselves as -- You know, we're that kind of, I guess, third-party entity platform. But with that said, engineers, you know, we are conserved by nature. We tend to keep ourselves out of trouble. So that handles a lot of it.

Wes Turecheck: The other part of it, if you are full-time at a firm, you're most likely gonna be limited on the amount of extracurriculars that you can do. So some of those tasks might be, you know, smaller shop drawings or checking a calculation. And you know, if you're doing that in a different market sector than your full-time job, the chances that it's gonna ripple over into your full-time job and cause a conflict of interest situation is pretty minimal. So there is always the potential, but a lot of the times it's gonna be an edge case.

Isaac Oakeson: Got you. Aaron, what comments do you have on that?

Aaron Klimisch: Well, yeah. I mean, Wes really covered it quite well. But I mean, it really does come down to, you know, a lot of the firms, smaller firms, typically don't have a written policy. And a lot of that will come down to just, like Wes said, you know, your conscience and your ethics. The main line would be talking to your supervisor and saying, "Hey, I'm thinking of doing this." And they may say 'yes' or 'no'. Or they may not care.

Aaron Klimisch: And the larger firms typically have a policy on this; moonlighting policy. Some of them that we've run across are simply stating that, in a similar manner, "Hey, talk to your supervisor. and don't be competing in our market verticals that we focus on in our firm." And a lot of times, you know, really what they're looking for is like, as Wes had sort of alluded to was, we don't want you working more and putting your best efforts into something outside of your employed engagement on this side project. So that's really what they're worried about. And I think as long as all of that's considered, it's definitely a good route to go if you're interested in it.

Isaac Oakeson: Oh yeah. I think that's great.

Wes Turecheck: I guess a couple other things to add on that is, we're working with our partners on getting resources for these engineers to get E&O, errors and omissions insurance, to form their business entity. So it's not like a -- You know, it's not like a, "Yeah, I'll do this kind of for fun," you know? It is a legitimate business entity that [inaudible]

Aaron Klimisch: Yeah. And you're entering into real legal contracts when you perform work with a firm and a consultant. So I mean, it's definitely not like press a button and, you know, just whatever. Maybe I'll do it. Maybe I won't. That's not what we've created. We're engineers. We wanna make sure it's done correctly.

Isaac Oakeson: Got it.

Wes Turecheck: There is a plus side to this too, you know? The engineers are getting business experience and, you know, maybe they're working with other people.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. That is like a whole separate body of knowledge or skills that you're gonna be learning if you jump into that arena. And it could be very good for you. And I know we mentioned this before, but it seems like there's a lot of other industries that do allow you to do stuff like this. And maybe engineering, specifically civil engineering, needs to catch up to that.

Wes Turecheck: Yeah. We need to catch up on a lot of things in the industry,

Aaron Klimisch: A few other things, too.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, maybe that's another episode. Okay, well, let's talk a little bit more about shingle. Now that you've started it, what challenges do you see shingle facing today?

Aaron Klimisch: Okay. I mean, I'll take that one. That's a really great question. You know, the biggest challenge that we see with what we're doing is, we're introducing a fairly large change to a very conservative industry in regards to resourcing and technology in general. So, like we've been talking about already several times, generally speaking, and I say generally speaking, engineers and their management that are usually engineers as well are not huge risk-takers.

Aaron Klimisch: So when you play something like shingle in front of this demographic that we're targeting, they typically respond how you think an engineer would, which is with a healthy amount of skepticism, or maybe unhealthy amount of skepticism. You know, the "Here's why it won't work list." And so overcoming that, I don't wanna say is challenging, but it can be an extra step that maybe isn't as prevalent in other industries. And getting firms to realize that it really can be that easy, you know, when they're used to doing it this tried and true way of executing work, that's really the challenge. And you know, just overcoming, you know, everybody's favorite phrase, "we've always done it this way."

Isaac Oakeson: That's true.

Aaron Klimisch: So it's like overcoming that. And what we're seeing is -- It's opening up pretty quickly, though. And we're seeing people that -- I hate to, you know, completely profile people. But you know what I'm saying? It's like someone that you would say, "Oh, there's no way they're gonna go for this." They are.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, and I also think -- I mean, just thinking out loud, but the younger generation seems to be very much latched on to trying to do things either remote, their own way, start their own thing. And this really falls in line, I think, with that and how the work is performed. So I know that, traditionally, civil engineering and firms and -- I'm in the utility world and I hear that phrase all the time: It's just how it's always been done. And you know, there's a huge drive in society to think outside the box. And even the utility world has, I guess, been taken by surprise by new-generation methods and new ways to do things. And so they're having to adapt to that. And it seems like that shingle is fitting in line with kind of that way of thinking, I guess, a little bit.

Aaron Klimisch: Yeah. Yeah.

Isaac Oakeson: I like it. Well, what are some wins that you've been having with shingle? Now that you've got this thing launched and rolling, what are some wins?

Aaron Klimisch: Oh man. There's just so many that we can't really single one -- I'm kidding. No, there's actually some significant wins in here. You know, one that comes to mind for me is we have managed to catch the attention of some large firm executives who you wouldn't think would give us the time of day. And you know, we're not gonna name any names, obviously, but that's a big validation for us.

Aaron Klimisch: And you know, another win or related win is that this last week we had a fairly large firm sign up to the platform after, you know, going through our sales process. Not just, "Hey, we're curious." This is a true sales pipeline sale to a large firm.

Aaron Klimisch: In addition to that, you know, other wins are simply validation and just praises from engineers who've been really looking for this. It comes through LinkedIn or sometimes through email where it's like, "Hey, this is really a great idea. I'm so glad someone did it," you know?

Aaron Klimisch: And you know, like I said, there's some wins here. We've had some venture capital interest as well as we grow our company. And that's always a major hurdle for most startups, you know? Very few are able to sort of get to this level where they have VCs actually pursuing them. So, this to me is probably the biggest win. Honestly, from a leadership standpoint, management standpoint, you know, vision standpoint, we need capital to grow this into what we believe this really is, right? So, yeah. That's some of our wins.

Isaac Oakeson: I'm excited. Those are great wins. Wes, any popped in your head as we were chatting? Or you agree with all those?

Wes Turecheck: Yeah. Kind of along those same lines. You know, the fun thing about a marketplace is you have two sides that you need to get going. You know, you don't only have sellers, but you have buyers too. So figuring out how to build both of those sides and give each side what they want. We're really starting to, you know, form that, get a cohesive message. And it's paying off.

Isaac Oakeson: I like it. So, part of the platform is obviously getting engineers on there. Is the idea, and maybe you have some advice, but if there's an engineer just starting out their career, is this a platform that they could jump on right now and start building up a brand for themselves? Or is the idea that they need to be licensed and wait until you can get that done before you jump on the platform?

Aaron Klimisch: Yeah, I'll start off answering that question. I mean, the answer to actually performing work on the platform, you know, the engineers really need to be able to work fairly independently. So you've got portions of the platform. You know, the first portion is really like, you can join the platform and create your profile and have that as sort of a billboard for who you are as an engineer. You can log your project experience. You can create basically your online resume. Yeah, similar to LinkedIn, but different. And more detailed and more tailored towards our industry and use our language, and use this as sort of your detailed billboard for potential clients in AEC.

Aaron Klimisch: So I look at it in two ways. One is like, "Hey, I'm gonna go do this as a side gig. I need to be experienced enough to do my own work." The second part is "I'm a student" or "I'm just starting out." There's no reason you can't join shingle and just start the process of building your brand, because -- You know, my advice to young engineers is, you know, start designing your career early on. Because what we're seeing, and my general philosophy has always been, plan for flexibility and redundancy to get stability in any industry now.

Aaron Klimisch: So everything's in flux, everything seems chaotic. Things are all over the place in terms of tenures and people at different firms. And so, if you plan for that flexibility and make your income streams redundant and have several clients and create this brand -- I guess in short, always have several irons in the fire. And we definitely see, you know, a huge shift in all industries; it's not just AEC. But you know, everyone is their own company. And so building your skill set outside of your work, I think is key. And there's no reason not to start that as early as possible.

Aaron Klimisch: You know, we're not advocating that you're gonna get experience on shingle if you've never, you know, been working under an engineer. That definitely is a super important part of getting your PE and actually having the confidence to do design. But marketing yourself to the world is very important because we know, and we do have a lot of data now, that that's where everything's headed. And having a basic background in entrepreneurship is super valuable these days. And I think any young professional, and even student of engineering, needs this basic background in entrepreneurship.

Aaron Klimisch: And shingle's really focused on teaching everybody like, "Hey, 30, 40% of the world is gonna be independent contractors," you know? All these sorts of statistics coming out, who knows how close it'll actually be. But the one thing is, I know for certain, it's not going down.

Isaac Oakeson: Right.

Aaron Klimisch: This is, this is my 99.9% confidence level here that that number won't go down. It will only go up. So people just really need to start their own personal brand. And I went on way off tangent there.

Isaac Oakeson: No, you're good. I like hearing about that. I guess, another question that popped in my mind is, a lot of engineers think that maybe they couldn't get started because a lot of times these resources or tools are very expensive. The software that engineers use. At least in your experience, have you seen that, when someone jumps on the platform, let's say another company hires them, that they may give them access to use some of the tools, maybe they have already, or is it "this is your brand, your company, you own what you own to do the job"?

Wes Turecheck: I guess I'll take that one. So, on the platform, I guess you don't have a whole lot of information or visibility into that part of it. I do know in our career, some of the specialty subcontractors or engineering contractors that we've worked with, firms have given them, you know, licenses to use their software. And then I'll go into the legal side of it, although I'm not a lawyer. Technically that is one of the things that is tested for if you are an independent contractor or an engineer. So I guess the theme on that one is, use your own software. Don't take the software from whoever you're working for, or you might be an employee.

Wes Turecheck: To that end. We are, we are working with software providers in the engineering industry to get, I guess, a bite-sized package for engineers that maybe only need STAAD, you know, once a month for a specific project. So you know, why am I gonna buy a year license for STAAD for a couple thousand dollars, right? That's the entire value of the project I'm working on. So yeah, working with them and getting a new kind of a gig model or pay-to-use. Something that we're hoping to roll out here.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. I'm in the transmission industry and, you know, they have specialized tools that use and things of that nature. And all these costs, you know, 10 grand or something to get a software going. So it can be expensive for people.

Wes Turecheck: And that's another thing that leads to, you know, the credibility side. It's like, "Yeah, I can get access to PLS CAD." You know, "I can use that. So there's another reason why a firm should hire me."

Isaac Oakeson: Got you. As you've been doing this, have you seen workloads between small and large firms? At least a difference between those two? Or are you seeing work that's coming in from both sides? I guess, how have you seen the differences between large and small firms and work that's coming through?

Aaron Klimisch: Oh, okay. Well, you know, we really only have one significant large firm. I mean, shingle seems more attractive to these smaller firms. So in terms of shingle itself, it's definitely more skewed towards small firms. But the industry in general, just because we have a lot of conversations with many, many, many firms, we're not seeing a huge difference now between workloads, you know, coming through.

Aaron Klimisch: You know, they both seem to have way too much work. And each one of them seems to have an incredibly hard time finding any engineers right now. So you know, the short answer is really, we're not seeing a huge difference at all right now. I mean, traditionally it's always been like the big firms are sort of -- You know, let's say, have an easier time finding talent. And the small firms have always traditionally had a hard time finding full-time employees and competing with these large firms in benefits and projects and stuff like that. But like I said, we have a lot of conversations, and it's a problem for both right now.

Isaac Oakeson: Got you. Well, I'm excited. This is good stuff. I'm excited for shingle. I'm excited about your mission, what's going on in your world. Is there any additional resources that you'd like to tell our audience about?

Aaron Klimisch: Wes, you wanna go first? Do you want me to go first? Yours is kind of boring.

Speaker 2: Mine's boring. I'll do mine first. So I took the traditional engineering approach to this question. So I will throw it up here. So this is more for structural folks because that's my background. Design of Welded Structures by Blodgett. You know, this is a book from, I don't know, the fifties or sixties. And it really goes into the theory and concepts on localized stresses. It's a great book when you have a project that's a one-off or retrofit and the code doesn't quite apply to your situation.

Isaac Oakeson: That's awesome.

Aaron Klimisch: Nerd.

Wes Turecheck: Nerd. All right, give your --

Isaac Oakeson: That makes me wonder if you have used shingle yourself to get a job.

Aaron Klimisch: So, okay. You know, for your listeners, I'll try to step it up a little bit in terms of -- Anyhow, my resources, and Isaac I'm sure you've obviously heard of him, but anything by Tim Ferriss. So I'm gonna go the entrepreneurship route. Like, anything by Tim Ferris. You know, obviously The Four-Hour Workweek. All the classics. His podcast is so good. And I remember listening to that a lot when I was in Germany. Actually, I used so much of his advice. And so, you know, the main thing from someone like Tim Ferriss that I learned is like, listen to people who've actually done amazing things. Not the the armchair experts, except Dax Shepard. He's the armchair expert, the podcast.

Aaron Klimisch: But you know, the people that -- You know, growing up, and I grew up very conservative, but there's always these people that are like, "Oh, this is what you should do." But they've never done it. They've never done. And it's like, they've got all this advice, but they really don't have anything to show for it. So somebody like Tim Ferriss and all of his guests that he has on the podcast actually break down in a long-form format really how they got to where they were.

Aaron Klimisch: The other resource, um, it's a bit of a plug, but we have something on our website called the Consultant Earnings Calculator. And this has been incredibly popular on our website. And it basically shows the difference between, you know, net pay if you're working as a consultant versus a traditional employee. So it gives you that apples-to-apples comparison, like, "Hey, if I worked 40 hours a week or 35 hours a week and wanted this much vacation and blah, blah, blah, how would that compare in a typical rate that I'd as a consultant versus what I'm doing right now?" And so that's a really valuable resource for anybody who's looking in terms of taking this entrepreneurship route in engineering.

Isaac Oakeson: That's awesome. Did you create that, Aaron?

Aaron Klimisch: I created it.

Wes Turecheck: He did. I have to give him credit for it.

Aaron Klimisch: I did create that and it's right --

Wes Turecheck: And it was based off of Excel, the first version. Just like every good engineering tool.

Aaron Klimisch: It was all Excel. And you know, the great part about it is that it factors in time savings as well. And that's become the asset that becomes super valuable, especially as you get older. For me, it's like, to factor in, "Hey, if I'm commuting," you know, let's take my San Antonio commute, "one and a half hours in traffic each way, three hours a day, to work 40 hours a week in the office, how much time savings would I have if I didn't commute any days a week and could work wherever I wanted and do the same work and then make a higher hourly rate?" So that number is surprising when you see it. So, I'd encourage any one of your listeners, even if they're not interested in shingle to just check it out to see that difference. Because it's significant, honestly.

Isaac Oakeson: Okay. We'll go link all that stuff in our show notes. Wes, where can people go find shingle? What's the web address?

Wes Turecheck: www.shingleit.com.

Isaac Oakeson: Okay. Excellent.

Wes Turecheck: And then that will take you to the more information and then the signup for the actual platform.

Isaac Oakeson: Love it. Well, thank you both for jumping on and explaining what shingle is, what it's all about, your backgrounds and all of that fun stuff. I really do appreciate it. And I guess, if we have to do another one in the future, it might be fun to do. But thanks for jumping on and doing this.

Aaron Klimisch: Oh, thanks a lot. Thanks for having us.

Wes Turecheck: Thank you very much.

Isaac Oakeson: See you.