Going through engineering school is hard, let alone passing the FE exam that comes along with it. Some engineers have taken the strategy of taking the FE exam right after school as the best option. In contrast, others get so busy with family- and work-related stuff that devoting hours to studying for the exam daily seems a barrier in itself, which causes them to postpone it — most of the time indefinitely. Today’s guest is the living proof that being out of college for a bit and in an exam setting is not that much of an obstacle.
Today’s interview is with D. J. Leslie, a civil engineer who graduated from the University of Alabama at Birmingham (UAB) and has been working as a construction inspector at Volkert, Inc. for about 5 years. He started out doing some basic paving jobs, working closely with the Alabama Department of Transportation (ALDOT). He then moved to a much larger project: a three-phase intersection redesign between the two major interstates in Birmingham, the I-65 and I-59/20.
Earlier this year, as an engineer with a 5-year experience in the field and away from exam settings for some time, he decided to take the FE exam in October. As a way to help him recall all the content that is tested on exam day, as well as to keep him on track to get a passing grade and connected with people who know how the exam works, he enrolled in the Ultimate Civil FE Review Course. D. J. mentions some features of the course that stood out to him, such as the huge bank of problems available and the practice exams that give a realistic preview of how exam day looks like.
D.J. Leslie LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/d-j-leslie-eit-58356a5a
D.J. Leslie Email – [email protected]
Volkert, Inc. – https://volkert.com
Ultimate Civil FE Review Course – https://civilfereviewcourse.com
Alabama Department of Transportation (ALDOT) – https://www.dot.state.al.us
The University of Alabama at Birmingham – https://www.uab.edu/home
Secrets of Mental Math: The Mathemagician's Guide to Lightning Calculation and Amazing Math Tricks, by Arthur Benjamin and Michael Shermer – https://amzn.to/3mowcfx
Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey, on Disney+ – https://www.disneyplus.com/pt-br/series/cosmos-a-spacetime-odyssey/3AAcsJhhmU10
If you need exams, solved problems, or courses, make sure to check out our home base – https://civilengineeringacademy.com
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Join over 4000 engineers like you and learn the tips and tricks to passing the FE and PE. We even have a free resource for you! – https://civilengineeringacademy.com/join-our-newsletter
Reach out to Isaac – [email protected]
Transcript of Show
You can download our show notes summary here or get our transcript of the show below!
Isaac Oakeson: Hey, what's going on everybody? I got a DJ on with me on the podcast episode. This is exciting. DJ, I will have read your bio already and things of that nature, but I just want to say hi. How's things going?
DJ Leslie: Things are good. Thanks for having me, Isaac.
Isaac Oakeson: Hey, appreciate it. This is going to be fun. I know I will read a brief bio about yourself, but I always want to ask my guests about their own bio. Like, why don't you describe, you know, your own background, where you're at with your journey in civil engineering, how did you get into this, things of that nature?
DJ Leslie: Yeah. So I grew up in a small town in North Alabama. Always enjoyed science and math. My father directed me to engineering. My older brother, he's four years older than me, is also a civil engineer. And I went to school at University of Alabama at Birmingham for engineering. I actually tried a couple of different types of engineering before I landed on civil. But once I got here, I really loved the curriculum. And --
Isaac Oakeson: What did your dad do, by the way? Just curious.
DJ Leslie: My dad's an electrician. He has an engineer's mind, but didn't go to school. And so he's an electrician. He's worked in construction, like electrician construction for 30 years, I guess, or something. However old he is. And he manages a DataCom Low-Voltage division at an electrical contractor.
Isaac Oakeson: I was just curious. That's always fun to hear. Some of those role models. Okay. So, you got your brother who graduated in civil engineering. You saw that that was a good step. Keep going.
DJ Leslie: Yeah. So, I finished engineering school in 2015 and started working a little bit later at my company that I'm at now, who does civil engineering inspection for, mostly DOT projects. So I've been working closely with the Alabama Department of Transportation for my five-year career. I've been an inspector, started out, you know, just learning construction and inspection through jobs of -- I started out on a basic paving job with some like replacing curb and gutter and asphalt paving, and striping in really small scale like that. And then moved to a job with two conventional bridges, steel girders, and really learned a lot about the structural properties of bridge building and construction. In that sense, vertical construction.
Isaac Oakeson: I think that's a great place to -- I mean, you're out of school, you're just starting. I think that's a great place to be because you're getting like hands-on experience.
DJ Leslie: Yeah. I love the fact that I started out in construction because I've learned a lot more than I think I could have about real-life building and civil engineering than I could have in design. Not to knock design, but I do love construction, and I love what it's taught me. And so from there I moved on to a much larger project. Actually, the two-bridge project was phase one of a large intersection redesign between two major interstates. Really the two major interstates in Birmingham I-65 and I59/20. And so I went to that portion that is just that interchange with a project that had about 20 bridges, conventional steel girder, concrete girder, long spans. We built one bridge that's 160 feet up in the air with 42 spans,and really got a really intimate knowledge of what bridge building looks like. That was a lot of fun. There's a lot of work, but I was really thankful to have that experience. After that, I moved to the third phase, the final phase, that I'm currently wrapping up right now with two over a mile long segmental bridges. That's been really fun. I've been working mostly on arth work, road building, subgrade buildup, and asphalt buildup, curb and gutter strip. And that's been my purview on this project, mostly.
Isaac Oakeson: What's your -- I mean, it sounds like that's the area you want to go to, but is that the goal? Or do you want to be something in the structural engineering world or what? What's the goal that you have for yourself?
DJ Leslie: Yeah. So, I really appreciate what inspection has taught me over these five years, but I'm not sure that this is what I want to do with my entire career. I like transportation which is interesting. It's not something that I was really attracted to as I was going through school. But as I worked in transportation construction, I really do enjoy it. And I think there's something special there.
Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. I notice most engineers don't know what they don't know, you know? Until you get out there and do stuff. Go intern, go get some experience, and then you start realizing, "Oh, you know what? I like that."
DJ Leslie: Yeah. Yeah. And that's something I never did in college. I never did an internship while I was in college. And so I think that hurt me. ButI do think probably transportation design is where I would like to go, but I think that -- I would just like to broaden my experience. Learn some new skills, some new arenas of the construction and engineering industry that I don't know. I think now's a good time to do that as I've been here for five years.
Isaac Oakeson: That's awesome. Well, I want to jump into the mindset you had, because when we talked to each other, you recently took and passed the FE exam. You're preparing now for the PE exam. But just trying to dive into that FE exam mode, you were a student of the Ultimate Civil FE Review Course, the course that we created at Civil Engineering Academy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you took the exam after you had graduated. Is that right?
DJ Leslie: Yeah. So I graduated in April, 2015from UAB. And thenwe had to take the test to graduate. We didn't have to pass the test to graduate, but it was a requirement to take the test before we graduated. And I didn't study for the FE. I took it right in the middle of my last semester, which was senior design courses and other difficult courses. You know, kind of weighed my options between study really hard and pass the FE or work really hard to get my degree and pass these classes. And so it was an obvious choice for me. But I took it and failed. And that really affected me in a deeper way than I realized at that point. But after I graduated, I kind of decided in my head that I don't have to study anymore, and this is my chance. I'm not going to study for a while. "Yeah. I'll go back and get the FE eventually". Like, for now, I just got out of four years of college. I don't want to take it again. I'm not going to spend another three months studying for the FE and take that again,and deal with all that. So, I decided that I was going to put it off until later, and I did not set a date to do that. I didn't really have a disciplined plan or me to come back to that. And so, flash forward to five years later,April of 2020,I am married now. It was around my wife and I first anniversary. And e had talked a lot about oing back and getting this done for my career, for me as like an engineer standpoint, and like -- I put a lot of value in myself as like, how I'm viewed as an engineer. And if I'm an engineer without an FE or PE, then what am I really? I want to get to that later because that's not true.
DJ Leslie: But it was encouraging. And my wife and I had a lot of difficult discussions that led me tosearching for a course because I knew that, one, I wasn't -- I didn't feel like I was going to be disciplined enough to just go and do the studying that I needed to do to pass this test. I really needed some structure, somebody to walk bare with me who knew what to expect and could move me in a certain way that I needed to put in the work that I needed to. So, yeah. Five years after I graduated college started studying for the FE again. And I scheduled my test for October. I said, "I have six months to study for this test". And I bought the six-month program of the Ultimate Civil FE Review Course, and I started investing 10 hours a week into studying for the FE.
Isaac Oakeson: That's great. Man, see what a wife does to you? Just get you all motivated.
DJ Leslie: My wife is like the MVP of the story. Yeah. Back to what we were talking about earlier as far as like not knowing really what I wanted out of civil engineering, my wife is a doctor at UAB. And as we were dating when she was in med school, she was going through the rotations. Basically trial rotations where she's working in all these different units throughout the hospital, when like she gets to experience all these different things, like a month at a time where she gets to do this work, interact with these people in a certain way and see if she likes it. That's something I really envy about medical school. And there's basically nothing else that envy about it. But the fact that they were able to experience almost all aspects of medicine to determine what they really wanted to do kind of blew my mind when I found that out, because I was like, "Wow, what if I had that in civil engineering?" That would be awesome.
Isaac Oakeson: I agree. You know, there's always -- You're always taught to go get you know, an internship, try to do that early. But you know, like we said earlier, we just don't know what we don't know. And there's no set program that gets you into experiencing a lot of different disciplines that are out there. I ended up in, you know, a utility world, which is an electric company working as a civil engineer, which is just awkward for me, you know? For an engineer that's in civil. But I recallsome presentations in some of my senior classes and ended up doing transmission design work, but I would have never known that's kind of an area that I enjoyed or even wanted to go into. So, I do wish there was a better program set up, like you mentioned, where you get to experiencea variety of disciplines for an engineer to see that. And maybe there is one I don't know about it. But I think that's spot on. Good advice. So, going back to, I guess, the course. How did you find the course? How did you find Civil Engineering Academy?
DJ Leslie: I looked up on the Google machine "FE Review Course". Andscroll down and there it was. And I clicked on it and, "They have a six month option. That's what I want to do". It was really no more complicated than that.
Isaac Oakeson: No brainer, huh? Well, maybe I can just pry into that a little bit more. Is there specific things that you liked about the course?
DJ Leslie: Yeah. I loved -- Being five years removed from school, I loved that there were short review lectures that were available along with just a huge bank of problems that I could access. My process going into this course was "All right. I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna take this section by section, listen to the review course, and then go in and work all the problems for as long as it takes me. And then move on to the next thing". I ended up going through that twice in the six months. And then after the second [Inaudible], I kind of went back and hit some things that I wanted to focus on. So, I went through everything twice, all the problems in the video bank and all of the videos, all the lectures. And that structure was really helpful to me. Having videos walking through problems was really helpful. And that was what I appreciated the most about it. And I'll say this too, the knowledge of the test that you guys have was really helpful. I think there was only one problem on the FE that I took that I didn't remember from Ultimate FE Review Course.
Isaac Oakeson: Wow! So we did a pretty good job there. Kepping you aligned with the actual exam. That's great. That's great feedback. I'm just curious, but did you alsoWhat kind of support did you get? Did you get any support at all? And did you join that -- As part of the course, there's a private Facebook community as well, but we also, you know, allow people to email us whatever they want, and so we can get to it quickly. But just curious how you felt about support and if that was there for you.
DJ Leslie: Yeah. So, I saw a Facebook community. I'm not on Facebook and I didn't feel likegetting a Facebook just to just join this. And so I wasn't a part of the Facebook community. And I did feel welcome to access you guys through emailif I had the urge. Most of the time, the questions that I had were answered in the comment section of the questions that I was looking at. And so that was also a really helpful tool that we have a comment section underneath each problem that you can ask questions about.
Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. Most people have very similar questions, so hopefully we get those answered for students in there. That's great. Just going into the actual exam experience, just so maybe we could shareyour experience and hopefully help others. But what were your thoughts onwhen you were taking the exam, on alternative type questions? Was there any issues there? Were you worried about it? Was it even an issue for you?
DJ Leslie: So, what are you talking about?
Isaac Oakeson: Alternative type questions are not multiple-choice questions on the FE exam.
DJ Leslie: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Isaac Oakeson: They call them AIT or alternative item types, I think is what they call them officially.
DJ Leslie: I remember a handful of them throughout the test. Maybe like conservatively five to 10. I think that it might have been less than fivefewer than five. And I didn't like it. I really wanted them to befour choices because, you know, I have a fill in the blank here and there's infinity choices as to what my answer can be. And I don't like that. I was also confused when -- One thing that I would feedback for NCEES is how closely is it graded as far as like -- I think it would be helpful to know how many significant digits to answer your question to. I think that would be helpful to like decimal places or whatever, because I didn't know how specific I needed to be, where I needed to round, or how much variation there was in their algorithm to give me a right answer. And so I just kind of went with one decimal place on all my calculations. Tried to go with it there.
Isaac Oakeson: It's s great question. I don't know that myself. I bet there's an answer out there that we don't know. ButI feel like that would be --
DJ Leslie: I really would have appreciated it being included in the question.
Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. It should be part of the question or probably when you first sit down at a computer and sign all the beginning documents to kind of an explanation of, if you see this, this is what you need to do. That's great feedback.
DJ Leslie: And another thing I may have just like completely read over this, or like not paid attention when you all were explaining it or whatever, but I'd forgotten -- It was like the first time I took it, but I'd forgotten that there wasn't a structured break time in the test. You finish the first 55 questions in the time that you finish those 55 questions, and then you take your break.
Isaac Oakeson: And do you recommend taking it?
DJ Leslie: I do recommend taking it. Yes. Yes. Definitely. I took a break and went and sat outside for a second and ate a sandwich and came back in
Isaac Oakeson: Energized.
DJ Leslie: Yeah. And I was able to sit down and kind of -- You know, I was still pretty fried, but a break has always worked well for me. And so I think, in general, I would recommend that, but each person probably is going to be able to determine for themselves what's going to be most helpful.
Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. I agree. We always do recommend taking the break. It's going to give you -- You know, like we said, you're going to be re-energized. You need your brain to kind ofGive it a break and then come back, get after it again. So, that's interesting. I like to ask this question just as part of your own journey, but what's one thing you wish you had known before you began this whole thing? Is there anything that was like, "Oh man, I wish somebody would've told me that"?
DJ Leslie: Yeah. I guess you can include that in there. I really was surprised when, like -- I'm thankful because I had a pretty calm demeanor in the test. And like, if this loop would have been thrown at me and I was in a stressed out zone, I don't know how I would have handled this. But I finished 55 questions and I had flagged questions and stuff. I was looking at my timer and it was like, "All right, it's time to take your break". And like, I was just shook by that, because I didn't realize that they didn't have a time scheduled for me to take a break. And so, 55 questions, the first half of the test is the first half of the test. And then you take your break and you finish the second 55. And so as far as budgeting time, that would've been helpful for me to know. I wish I would've known that, so I could be more conscious about how I budget it. It worked out fine, and my time was budgeted well.
Isaac Oakeson: So you're probably over two hours into it, I imagine, when you get that break notification. Yeah, that's a good point. Time management is a huge deal on the FE as well as the PE. And I love that you mentioned the right mindset too, because I think if you're not going in with like a, you know, "I got this", you've calmed down, if you're anxious about this, I think just going in with the right mindset is a huge part of this exam. And I'm glad you brought that up, but those two things, time management and having the right attitude, the right mindset, can give you a huge leg up on this exam. And I think it's really a key to passing because you're going to do all the other stuff. So, you're going to get prepared for it. Were you blown away? Do you feel like there was a hefty amount of theory questions? Was that a surprise? Is there anything like that?
DJ Leslie: I don't remember being surprised by a lot of theory questions. There was one question in particular that just made enough sense as I read the question or as I read the answers. And so I got out of the test and I preyed that that was a test question that they weren't going to count. But, in general, no. I think that the theory questions were regular and not super complicated, except for that one.
Isaac Oakeson: That's great. Well, I'm also curious, in your own experience, if you could do anything over again, what advice would you give to someone else that's kind of been in a similar situation as you?
DJ Leslie: Well --
Isaac Oakeson: Or do you have anyDo you wish you would have done it earlier? You were fine doing it when you did it? Is there anything that you would recommend?
DJ Leslie: Yeah. So, I wish I would have done it earlier. But, honestly, the way that it happenedis no mistake. I had a lot of work to dofor myself before I could make this journey. Like I was saying before, Ihad an issue with defining my value based on this exam. And like, "Who am I as an engineer, as a person, if I'm an engineer who doesn't have the FE or doesn't have the PE. I've got five years experience by now". And that's the only reason I [inaudible] to have done it sooner is because I could have been a PE for a year by now with four years of experience, if I had taken the test in a more timely fashion. But that is what it is.
Isaac Oakeson: But at the same time, if I'm hearing you right, what you're saying is, people that don't have it, you're not valued any less. It sounds like, you know, you're still contributing in a lot of different ways whether you're in the construction world whether you're doing anything else in the civil world, you're still making valuable contributions and can still find satisfaction and huge value in that. If hearing right.
DJ Leslie: Right. I think my main point, my main struggle as like a person, not just talking as some engineer, is that like every person, including myself and any person who doesn't have the FE, my value as a person is intrinsic in me being a person. It's not about whether I have this FE or whether I have an engineering degree, or whether I have a PE. It's based on me being a person and having value just based on that. And I'm no better or worse for having the FE. The fact that I have it is a blessing and I'm thankful for it. And I worked hard for it, but I had to come to that understanding before I could even attempt to take the FE. I was afraid of failing because that was going to define who I was. I know that the promises that I havein my salvation, in my walk with Lord and with who I am as a person, this is true for everybody. Every person has value, no matter what place they are in, no matter what mistakes they've made in the past, no matter how many degrees or how many certifications they have. That is something that I happened to come to an understanding of before I could even attempt this so I wasn't afraid to fail. There are still some of that leftover in the week and a half that it took for me to get my results back. You can ask my wife. Hours definitely afraid of failing. And I felt -- I told her multiple times that I felt like if I get a failing result, that is going to define who I am, and I had to have her and other people speak into my life and remind me of the truth that I know that I have value no matter if I pass this stuff or not.
Isaac Oakeson: That's great advice. I love hearing that. I think that's spot on. You know, I'm a repeat taker myself. So, do I crawl on a hole or, you know, do I get back and get after it? And what's funny is I created Civil Engineering Academy because of my own experiences through the struggles I went through, right? And so I didn't allow that to define me orallow me to not try to help other people, or be successful in this arena. So I think that's great advice. It took me twice to pass the FE exam. The first time I took it, I was really early in school and I had a study buddy that passed ithis first time, and we were like juniors in college. And that made me so mad because, you know, we were at the same level. I felt like I should've passed too. But this guy -- I mean, everyone's got one of those guys that's just smarter than everyone else. And he was able to do it and it took me multiple times. So took me twice. But you know, you get through it. Everyone's got a different journey. I appreciate you sharing that. I think that's really goodadvice for everybody. And I loved hearing that. So, thank you for sharing that. Kind of wrapping things up, is there any books or other resources that you would recommend to the Civil Engineering Academy community at all that help with the FE or otherwise?
DJ Leslie: Yeah. So this is going to be like a minuscule help for the FE if you want to do it. But otherwise, I think this is a really fun read. I have The Secrets of Mental Math: Mathmagicians Guide to Lightning Calculations and Amazing Math Tricks, by Arthur Benjamin and Michael Shermer. This book is basically just a guide to being able to process in your head long math problems and being able to get precise numbers or quick estimation, which I think would be more helpful in an engineering realm. But for the FE, you know, I have a calculator. Until I find all these things perfectly, I probably would still use the calculator in the FE. This is a really, really cool book with a lot of interesting math tricks and it really brings in the fun part of math for people who think that's possible. So, I really enjoyed that.
Isaac Oakeson: Hopefull those listening are all engineers and they must have loved math at some point in their journey. Well DJ, I guess we'll call you The Human Calculator now. You've read that. Crunch numbers real quick.
DJ Leslie: Don't test me. I'm not very good at it. But you can look up Arthur Benjamin on YouTube and be much more impressed than if you tested me on it.
Isaac Oakeson: Awesome. We'll get that posted for people. I mean, is there any other tips, tools, habits that you've developed in preparing for the FE you would like to share with others or anything else?
DJ Leslie: So yeah. One other thing that I wanted to get to was, included in the six month course that I got fromthe Ultimate Civil FE Review Course, is two practice exams. And those practice exams were -- I mean, when I say integral like, probably the most integral part of my studying and preparation, because I took this number one, this is five years out of school. I don't remember what tests are like. I took test number one, time myself. I had six hours to take this test. In the six hours I finished 60 problems and got about half of them right. Time management is so important when we're talking about taking standardized tests, especially the FE. I learned that on my first test went back -- You know, this was like three months in the studying, or three or four months in the studying. I took that test. Probably three and a half. And then I took the second test about a month, five weeks later, had a much more structured view of what my time management should look like, much quicker off the bat to skip problems I didn't know, and come back to it. And at that point I was four and a half months in the studying out of six. And I finished the test and had answered like 85 of them, or 90 of them, "confidently" in air quotes. I got some of them wrong, but I felt like I knew how to do them. And ended up getting around 65% of them right. I had a month and a half left to study and fine tune these rough spots. And so, that is what I would say. The practice tests are so important. Use those to shape my game plan going into the actual FE, and that was super important.
Isaac Oakeson: That's great advice. What would you recommend for amount of study time during a week for people?
DJ Leslie: I think it depends. It definitely depends. It depends on how long you been out of school. For me, I think that me being out five years is probably not a whole lot different than somebody who is out 10 years. And I took -- I didn't do this perfectly. So, I would say that I probably studied about 200 hours for the test. I went into it around the end of April. I had my test scheduled for the 25th of October. I went into it saying, "I'm going to study eight hours over the weekends and two hours throughout the week". I'm still working a full-time job. I'm still busy. And so, a total of 10 hours a week and ended up perfectly. I've probably missed four or five weeks of doing that regularly. And tried to catch up when I missed, but also put about $200 into it. And 10 hours a week is a lot of work, but I passed the FE now, and I would say that's definitely worth it.
Isaac Oakeson: That's awesome. That's great advice. Thanks. And I agree. It depends on where you're at. You know, if you're in school, you probably need less, if you're out of school, you're going anymore. So, that's just the nature of it. We all forget things. Well, just to kind of wrap this up, I always ask kind of a fun question, but if you had all the knowledge in the world, what's something you'd like to be a part of an engineering?
DJ Leslie: So I've been thinking about this. I actually have two answers. If you said civil engineering, I was going to say safe water for all. And I would love to work on projects that provide safe-drinking water for people around the world. If I were going to gooverseas, that's what I would feel like my role would be. I could be wrong, but --
Isaac Oakeson: Actually, we had an interview with Charles Thompson just a couple episodes ago. And he told me we actually have a lot of water issues right here in the United States. He works ona lot of Indian reservations and they do not have running water or water quality, and good wastewater management. So, I was like, "Whoa, I had no idea". But there's issues just right here in the States. Anyway, lots of opportunities.
DJ Leslie: Yeah. But just in a broad engineering sense, I would definitely say sustainable energy. Solar energy, making that. I mean, I have basically no knowledge of any of this, but it's something that interests meTrying to figure out how to optimize solar, wind, hydro energy. So, that woulb be something I'd really want to work on. Also, related to that, if I can plug one more thingthe TV show on Disney+, Cosmos. It's a reboot of the Carl Sagan show from, I think the eighties. But now Neil deGrasse Tyson hosts now. That show is awesome. I love it. I learn a lot. It like scratches my science ditch andit kind of talks a lot about like science. It talks a lot about history and some of the less well-known scientists and you know, visionaries in the science world that I never learned about in school. And so that's been really fun to me to learn andexperienced those stories. And like they have a -- Neil deGrasse Tyson is a really good storyteller. And he's able to like, walk you through some of these experiences that people through history have gone through to bring about some of the things that we experienced today. And so, that's a really cool show and I recommend to everybody. That was called Cosmos?
Isaac Oakeson: That was called Cosmos?
DJ Leslie: Yeah, Cosmos.
Isaac Oakeson: Okay. Go get your Disney+ on if you don't have it. Get Cosmos. I'm going to go check that out now. Okay. Wellthank you for jumping on the show. I think you've shared a ton of value with anyone that's going to take the FE exam. If anyone wants to go check out the course, go check it out at civilfereviewcourse.com. We actually do have a special going on right now for those studying. But, talk about that later. DJ, is there any last piece of guidance? What's the best way to get ahold of you if anybody had questions?
DJ Leslie: Yeah. So again, I'll justOne last piece of guidance, I would say believe in your value no matter what place you're in. If you have the FE, if you don't. If you have the PE, if you don't. You are worth something regardless of where you're at, what your experience is, where you come from, what mistakes you've made. There is value in you as a person and don't believe the lie that there's not. And my name's DJ Leslie. You can reach me on my emailat [email protected] That's Dennis spelt regularly, James spelled regularly, and then Leslie is L E S L I E at Gmail. Andyou can hit my LinkedIn also, if you want to. It's DJ Leslie.
Isaac Oakeson: Perfect. Well DJ, thank you for jumping on the show. This was fun. I really do appreciate it.
DJ Leslie: Yeah. Thank you, Isaac.
Isaac Oakeson: All right, we'll see you later.
DJ Leslie: All right. Bye.
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