Isaac Oakeson: All right, we are up and live! Mark, what's going on?

Mark Oakeson: Hey! Just joining and hanging out with you, Isaac. As always.

Isaac Oakeson: Awesome! So I'm excited to have you back on today. You know, we're into 2021 already. I can't believe how fast the year has flown by.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. Which, looking back, is probably a good thing, right? 2020 wasn't very kind to us.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. Let's leave that one behind us. I remember when that new year came, everyone was so excited because it was 2020. And it just turned out to be a mess, I guess.

Mark Oakeson: It was a bummer.

Isaac Oakeson: Here's to 2021. So, I thought it would be fun, in looking at 2021, I talked about this being a new year and maybe even a new you, and just discuss some of the ideas that maybe a lot of civil engineers have on their mind right now and improving themselves. And so, looking at 2021, I have a list of ideas I think it would be fun to discuss together, and give some tips and advice no matter which stage civil engineers are finding themselves on this journey.

Mark Oakeson: Okay.

Isaac Oakeson: The first one I thought about is a new career path. So, some civil engineers don't like either where they're at, or they just want something new. So, what's some advice you'd have for these guys?

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. And that's -- You know what, that can be kind of a scary thing, especially if you've been down a career path for some years, and you've kind of developed your skills in a certain area and you've developed your reputation, a little bit of a rapport with your employer, that can bekind of a scary thing. I would say, first of all, if you recognize that you're not on the career path that you like, it takes some courage to even explore that. But what you have to do is reassess kind of your interests, your skills your current level ofeducation. And then, if you're someone that's been out in the workforce for quite a few years, you probably have a little better feel for job options that maybe align with your interests a little bit better, wouldn't you think? Rather than somebody who's a little bit newer to a particular industry.

Isaac Oakeson: Do you know anybody that's made a complete career pivot? Let's say they were in structures and all of a sudden they were just like, you know, "Screw this. I want to get into transportation".

Mark Oakeson: I have known a couple individuals that have done that. Andthey are those type of individuals that are very -- I'll call them "adaptable". They have a verybroad skill base. I knew a guy that he was a structural engineer. He had a degree in nuclear physics, which was kind of interesting. But that was the area that he was in. And then one day he said, "You know what? I don't want to do structural engineering anymore". And he just went off and he got into the transportation field, like you mentionedwhich was kind of an interesting change. But his background, his education, was in like nuclear physics. So, you know, if you're one of those kind of individuals pretty much do whatever you want, I guess.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, there should be a warning, I guess. But there is an expectation that if you do do a complete career change, you're not going to be probably starting out as an engineer, or manager, or anything like that.

Mark Oakeson: No. You need to expect to probably start at an entry level, which can come at a financial cost, right? Entry-Level positions do not yield as much a salary as a experienced position. And that's part of where some of the courage comes in to make that jump.

Isaac Oakeson: I guess that's one mindset, right? Maybe someone's considering a complete career pivot. There's also another mindset where people just aren't maybe happy with where they're at, maybe the environment.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. Yeah. So, sometimes you may be in an industry that may be something you like and you enjoy, maybe the subject matter. But maybe it's just the environment that's not -- That you're not doing very well. And maybe the people. The people that you work with, you know? Despite your best efforts, you just can't get along. Or maybe the organization that you're involved with doesn't align with your values per se, you know? Those kind of things I think are easily remedied, or more easily remedied, because you're just switching from maybe working for one company to another, right? Kind of a lateral move, if you need to make it.

Isaac Oakeson: And I think those positions might be easier because you've already built maybe a network of people, or you've interacted with people in the same space, they know who you are, and it's easy to just say, "Hey, you guys got any openings over there? Are you guys hiring?", and there you go.

Mark Oakeson: So those lateral moves are a lot easier. But, if you're trying to make like an absolute -- You're flipping completely around you need to do a little research, I think, before you jump off that cliff, you know? And I would suggest that you get up close and personal with those options that you're considering, you know?. It's one thing to sit back and look at different career options from a distance. And it's a completely another thing to get kind of involved, talk to people that actually do that job that you're interested in. Maybe you shadow that person for a little bit. You work your networks that you've got and see if --

Isaac Oakeson: As if you really work in over there.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah, exactly. What's it really like, you know? And "Hey, would you mind if I just came by and just kind of watch what you do for a little bit? Obviously you'd have to have a relationship with the person to be able to do some of those things, but those are always good ideas because ultimately if you're switching completely in career you're trying to rebrand yourself, right? The longer you're in a particular career path you kind of get branded as that's your level of expertise, that's your area of expertise, and now you're going to change and go in a different direction. You're really working on kind of rebranding yourself.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. Look at my own life, my own career path. You know, I've been in the utility world since I've graduated. And before that I was in water resources and did a little bit environmental engineering. And now in the utility world, I got into transmission design. I did that for a number of years. And now they've moved me into more of a project management type of role. And I had a hard time making that title switch. I don't know why. I didn't want to be labeled as a project manager. I wanted to be an engineer.

Mark Oakeson: You felt like you were resigning that engineer title.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. Because you're kind of putting it away. And there's some truth to that because, you know, you still get involved in some level, but it's not the same level. But those are all things to look at and consider. So I'm a utility man.

Mark Oakeson: Right. Well, and there's nothing wrong with that, right? It's just -- It depends on what you want to do. But that's definitely true. The higher you get up into management, the less you're involved in kind of the actual engineering, right? The actual calculations, the actual layout, the actualdesign work. You get away from that. And some people don't like that.

Isaac Oakeson: That's true.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah.

Isaac Oakeson: Okay. Well, hopefully, if you are in those shoes where you're deciding on either a new career path to take, or pivoting, or jumping ship and moving to a lateral position, hopefully those tips give you something to chew on and think about on your future this year. Another one I thought about, most engineers should have a goal. Everyone should actually. Is a goal to pass your exams this year? The first one I've listed obviously is the PE, but you have to get your FE and that's the first step. So you know, these exams change all the time. Specs get updated. People might be wondering when the best time to take it is. And my advice is the best time is now. Like, just start. So, we're in January, if you're preparing for the PE in Aprilnow's the time to start studying. If you need help, go check out our course, civilpereviewcourse.com. And we've also got an FE course, which is obviously year round. So if you need help with that jump to civilfereviewcourse.com and make sure you take advantage of that. Mark and I helped create that, package that guy together, and all the courses give you tons of stuff. So you get the exams, you get modules, you get practice problems really everything you need. So Mark, when you talk about the value of passing these, why it should be a goal if you haven't had it yet?

Mark Oakeson: Well I think in my own career, I passed the PE clear back in 2002, and I just remember --

Isaac Oakeson: Old.

Mark Oakeson: I am old. Yes. Isaac speaks truth. But I just remember that -- I mean, first of all, obviously the feeling of accomplishment and having done that. The first thing. But then that next level of respect and consideration that I gotwhere I worked it was great. And it really directed me for the rest of my career into what I'm doing now that. That credential has -- I mean, it's been invaluable to have that credential and opening doors.

Isaac Oakeson: I remember when you were stamping drawings. I do remember that.

Mark Oakeson: Yes. And that was a little bit of an intimidating thing for me, because it was like, "I'm responsible for this design". I mean, in my line of work as you know, Isaac, with what I design, there's some life safetyin what I do. And so I have to make sure that it's right, because people's lives are at risk if something is wrong.

Isaac Oakeson: But you needed it.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. And so it kind of propelled me into that additional responsibility, but then the compensation goes up with all that as well.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. So guys, we're preaching to the choir probably, but if you haven't got it on your list to pass, do it. The PE is going to be changing to computer-based in 2022. If you haven't listened to a podcast I did with the NCEES director of exams, go check that out because we detail that. Because of COVID, they've accelerated that schedule, the FE is already year round. So get these exams under your belt. You know, it's easier to probably do it when you're closer out of school, but really anytime is a good time to do it. And in fact, I've got lots of people reach out to me, who are in their sixties, passing the PE exam.

Mark Oakeson: No way! Sixties? Aren't your brain dead by 60?

Isaac Oakeson: I guess not.

Mark Oakeson: That's awesome.

Isaac Oakeson: You can see it like a personal, you know, achievement. You have to do it. It's good.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. Absolutely.

Isaac Oakeson: Okay. Let's talk about our next one that maybe you have on your mind, and that is to learn something new this year in 2021. Why do we want to do this?

Mark Oakeson: So, if you're a licensed engineer you know that you're obligated to do continuing education, right? Depending on the state where you're licensed, there's different requirements for that. But use that as an opportunity to kind of stay up on current industry trends and the direction of the industry that you're in. I think it's easy to go out there and find. There's so many offerings on, you know, personal development hours. You can go online, you can go -- There's so many different offerings these days for professional development hours.

Isaac Oakeson: And because of COVID, most of those are online, right?

Mark Oakeson: That's true. And hopefully that trend changes, because I really think the personal instruction has some value. I mean, the online stuff definitely has a place, but I think the personal instruction has some value because you're able to network with people that are in your industry. But use that opportunity or that requirement to pursue that continuing education. As an opportunity to stay up on top of things. You know, there's some "fluff courses", I'll call them, that are just kind of general courses that will get you your credits, your continuing education units, your CEUs. Maybe those are easier, but I would advise somebody to go after the things that are going to actually enhance your knowledge base in the particular discipline that you're in. Use that as an opportunity to enhance your knowledge base. Don't just waste it.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. And right now we're in Utah, and I know that's coming up. I just got a notice. So, I gotta start filling in the gaps.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. You gotta have 30 every two years. We gotta have 30 of them. Don't we?

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. So that's great. Get some education, but more specifically directed in the field that you're in.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. And what's cool is every field in civil engineering -- I mean, there's a depth that can be explored there that's maybe next level, you know? In my career as you know Isaac, I deal with a lot of structural concrete, right? And I could go and just, you know, concrete is concrete, but if I take it to the next level, I can start getting into the chemistry, right? And the mix design, and how that reacts, and the placeability of the concrete. You know, there's just those next levels that you can take your discipline.

Isaac Oakeson: High-Performance concrete.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. And it just enhances your knowledge base and your value as a civil engineer.

Isaac Oakeson: That's great. Never stopped learning. I had also tack on that don't hesitate to learn other skillseven outside of civil engineering. You know, I myself have learned a lot of things outside of it that have helped enhance my own career in life. And if you have a desire to learn other things as well, you know, now is a good time to do that. So don't hesitate. Keep learning.

Mark Oakeson: And what's cool about working in your industry, in your environment, and coupling that with more formal education, like a classroom setting, is you're kind of getting the best of both worlds, right? The best type of education is the type that's -- You know, traditional formal education where you're learning theory. But then when it's coupled with actual real life experience, that's when it really hits home and becomes something valuable. And so that's what you're trying to do with your continuing education. Trying to couple that with your work experience.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, if you got any conferences you're heading to, you send them my way, because I need [inaudible].

Mark Oakeson: Okay.

Isaac Oakeson: Let's talk about this. One of the things we discussed in learning something new is the value of a degree. And a lot of people have on their mind earning a master's degree, whether that's a master's of science, so an MSc, or going the MBA route and earning that coupled with your bachelor's in engineering. So what's the value of getting a master's degree? What if someone's confused about which path they want to take? What's some advice you have with that?

Mark Oakeson: Well my advice with that is, I think it's particular to the industry that you're in. I think if you are in a purely design environment, if you're more of a design firmemployee, then I think the MS degree is something that's probably a little more valued in that environment. Whereas I think if you're in a construction, or manufacturing, or an industry firm thatthey may be manufacturing products that are usedout in the market, construction, whatever the industry happens to be, those career paths I think value the MBA a little bit more. And I think if you're going for a graduate degree, that's probably the direction you should go in. That's my experience.

Isaac Oakeson: So I think what's fun is that you have an MBA degree, and you're probably more involved in design work. I got an MSc degree, and I'm more involved in the management.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. Yeah. It's weird how that happens. And some people get both. I mean, I work with guys in the industry that have both. In fact, I work with guys in design firms that have both because that's -- And they're more up in the principal-type levels at their firms. And so they have to get involved in the business side of their operations. And so those kinds of things are valued at that level.

Isaac Oakeson: I also know many universities are combining degrees. So they're combining an MBA with an Ms, with a few additional courses.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. And that's something that's tailored just for us, because then you're not having to make that choice. Do you know what universities have that specificly?

Isaac Oakeson: I definitely know that the University of Utah, which is where we both went to, started offering that. So, check out.

Mark Oakeson: Okay. I didn't know that. That's really cool. Then you don't have to make a choice. You can just do that and you're covered.

Isaac Oakeson: Get it done.

Mark Oakeson: Get it done.

Isaac Oakeson: I do think it is worth it. I got my masters later on in life. And the reason why I wanted to get it is because I wanted more formal education in subjects that I hadn't necessarily covered, or I felt like I could get more experience in, especially in the workplace I was in. Like concretethings of that nature. Doing transmission design, you know, we spec out a concrete mix and that was it. But I wanted to know more.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. It's valuable to know concepts. And we get a little bit of that in like what they call Engineering Economics, right? Time value of money and those kinds of things. But I'm telling you, man, you get deep into the accounting and finance and those types of subjects that an MBA tends to push you into. And it really opens your eyes to the business side of things, rather than just the technical side of things that you've been exposed to your whole academic career. It was just good because now, when business decisions are made you kind of know the reason behind most of those things. You know what a balance sheet is. If you're a project manager type of guy in civil engineering, you know how to do your job costing, you know, for projects and track costs, and those kind of things that an MBA helps you in what you're doing.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, I think that's good. So, get out there, learn something new. I mean, I could throw in this category as well, learning some soft skills. You know, learning how to become a better public speaker, learning how to become a better writer. All of those things can fall into this category. So get out there and learn something new is good advice for 2021. Another tip or another piece that somebody might have on their mind this year is to ask for a raise.

Mark Oakeson: Ooh, that's scary school.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. So we want a little bit more income. We worked to death in 2020 because we kept hearing that we had to do more with less. And all of a sudden we realized our company maybe was still doing just fine. Andyou know, we got screwed on our raise this year. Maybe next year we can get a better way. So, what are some tips for making a case on a raise?

Mark Oakeson: Well I think the first thing you need to do is know yourself know your manager, your direct supervisor, right? His personality, what he values, what his goals are. And you need to know the company you work for. Every company has a culture. They have an overall we'll say "mission statement", if you want to call it that. You know, they've got an overall direction that they want to go in. And just make sure that you're getting prepared to communicate how your personal career goals are in line with that overallcompany goal and the company's future, and how they see themselves growing, you know? If they're in growth mode andthey're trying to grow in the market, or maybe they're trying to take over different segments in the market. Whatever their goals are, make sure your career goals are kind of in line with those things, or at least be able to express how they are in line with those things before you go in and ask for your raise.

Isaac Oakeson: Soyeah. My thoughts on this are, a lot of people I know that have gone in and asked for a raise, even though that might be really scary, they've kind of built, I wouldn't say a "portfolio", but they've got a case you know? They've done their homework. If they're going to try to go from maybe a career engineer to a senior level engineer, they've looked at the job description, or maybe they've seen a posting of that job before and a list with all the requirements to become a senior engineer. And some of these people have kept those descriptions. And then over the course of maybe the year they've been working, they highlight everything that they've done personally. You know, when they've gone in and asked for a raise, they go in and say, "Look, I'm doing everything that a senior engineer is doing based on what you would hire forAnd they kind of make a case case for that. You know, that might be an idea.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. And that's asking for more than a raise, it's asking for a promotion, which has a raise that comes with it. If you can explain to your manager or your supervisor, "Hey, I meet all the qualifications for this position", that's a great way to approach it.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. So that's a good thing to do. Yeah, you highlight your successes that you've had, highlight, you know, major projects that you've done, and if you canget on board with your manager's personality and how they communicate, I don't think it's very hard to communicate a raise to them if you guys arekind of on the same wavelength and talking to each other. You know, he has sat down with you probably once or twice a year to go over your own stuff.

Mark Oakeson: And you know what's sad, Isaac, is most of the time when you actually get a raise it's because you probably have an offer from another firm to go work for them for more money. That's usually how it happens.

Isaac Oakeson: That's the truth.

Mark Oakeson: You're like, "Hey, XYZ, company is going to offer me X amount. Thinking about going over there". And then all of a sudden, your manager realizes how valuable you are.

Isaac Oakeson: It's pretty sad, but it's true. A lot of people won't pull a trigger on a promotion or raise, unless you have an offer in hand. Which can be a scary move because then you've got to tell somebody or you're headed.

Mark Oakeson: Right. And that can be perceived as a little bit of disloyalty to the company and maybe the team that you're involved with, you know?

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. I can speak from personal experience and the raises that I've had have been when I've had an offer. And then trying to get another raise or promotion, but, you know, I was committed. You have to be committed to being, you know, taking that next step. And if you are, then you can reevaluate your options. If your current company does come back and say, "Yeah, we do want you". You know, "We can't go as high as them, but you know, this is what we can do". And then you're back to kind of re-evaluating what you want to do. So, yeah. That's good advice.

Mark Oakeson: That's usually how it happens.

Isaac Oakeson: Okay, good advice. Let's talk about maybe an engineer that wants to move into a management position and we maybe discussed some of these ideas already. But what if someone's hungry to move from engineer to manager? What would you advice for them?

Mark Oakeson: Well, there's lots of things that somebody uses, or skillsets that they develop on their way to being a leader, right? That's essentially what we're talking about. Excuse me. Is being a leader, right? And so that means getting people to want to follow you. So, you need to have those attributes, those skillsets, thatget people to recognize that you are a leader and they want to follow you because you got some good things going on. So, there's some things that I would, you know, throw out there about -- You know, for sure you want to stay humble, but be hungry, be passionate about what you're doing. Be involved. Manage your emotions is a big one. Well, there's lots of things in the course of a day thatcould get your emotions, you know, riled up. Somebody says something you don't like, you don't agree with somebody something that get your temperature up or couldUsually things have a way of working themselves out. Once all the emotions have calmed down, andthis usually happens, of course, with confrontation, and sometimes that has to happen in a work environment. Usually the best decisions are made after the emotions of calm down and things are smoothed out a little bit that way. And so, it's kind of a soft skill that you have to learn how to do. And those are the skills that I guess you get -- A lot of that has to do with how you were raised and, you know, the environment that you grew up in, maybe.

Isaac Oakeson: I think one of the things that really ticks me off about management is there are some managers that just aim to point a finger at people, instead of finding a solution. They're always digging into who, you know --

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. Who can they blame.

Isaac Oakeson: And while that might be good information, yeah, we want to know how it started so we can prevent it again, it doesn't do anybody any good to just beat that person up.

Mark Oakeson: And admit your own mistakes, right? Be willing to admit your own mistakes. If you commit a mistake, and you will that happens, everybody does it man, own it. Just own it. And then be understanding when others commit mistakes and don't try to look for, you know, pointing fingers and casting blame. That's not constructive.

Isaac Oakeson: I mean, I could go on examples of -- Like, I deal with scopes of work all the time. We write scopes almost for the whole company and for projects. We have engineers that scope projects, and we sent out a scope of work to a consultant, they designed this whole thing, whole substation based on the scope of work, and fond out that the transmission guys didn't talk to the substation guys, and now you've got an entire design in a Bay that is not the right Bay. You know, who's owning that mistake? Dived into it and found out it was at a substation level. So, it fell back on our own internal group. And the manager was quick to admit it. I was relieved. I have a new respect when people can own their mistakes and say, "You know what? I missed it. I'm sorry".

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. That garners more respect than somebody who's just trying to deflect everything and point fingers. So that's what a leader does for sure. And then, you know, be happy for other successes, give credit when credit is due. And then throughout the work process, you have to allow for bonding to occur with others. And that's kind of a scary word, maybe for some, especially as engineers, right? "I Don't want to bond with anybody". But you have to let relationships work relationships. I'm not saying you have to go out and, you know, go fishing with the guy every weekend or whatever, but you have to let those relationships develop through the work process, right? That's what develops trust, youdevelop trust in others, and then you earn trust in return as those relationships get developed. You have to allow those kinds of things to happen.

Isaac Oakeson: That's awesome.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. You want to be able to develop empathy for others, try to put yourself in their shoes and understand where they come from. Obviously, you know, we've talked about this already, but you're continually trying to gain experience and knowledge. You gotta try to be the expert in your field. Be a teacher. That's another good way to kind of solidify your knowledge base is teach. Be a mentor. Teach those guys that are maybe younger in your industry that are coming up. Don't be afraid to impart your knowledge and help them, because it only enhances your career and your ability to be a leader. The other thing, Isaac, micromanaging, right? That's a tough thing that I think some people naturally are inclined to do that. I struggle with that sometimes because I don't think things can be done correctly unless I do them myself, right? I constantly battle that. And so I get into a little bit of micromanaging sometimes to make sure people are doing the right things. But you can't get into that cycle. Not only is it exhausting as a manager, but you gotta let people do their jobs. Sometimes they're going to do it differently than you do. But if the outcome is adequate, is the same, then it's good. So you just hold those individuals accountable for their outcomes, but just let them go about it in their way, right? Even though it may be a little different than yours.

Isaac Oakeson: No, I totally agree with that. I have personal experience with that one too at work. And so, I can see a huge difference between managers or directors that micromanage versus those that, you know, allow people to design, make their own mistakes, and have to own those mistakes if they come about. And I can tell it eats a manager's time up. You know, their day is completely short if they're micromanaging every aspect of every job that you own. So you know, it's good to be informed, obviously, but I think the more you can allow people to grow is a better option for you. So, good tips. Anything else?.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. I would just mention here a couple last things if you want to be a manager is learn to recognize talent so that you can build talented teams, people that are surrounding you that are talented. And that kind of comes along too as you're building trust and these bonds with people, as you're completing work assignments and projects together. But learn to recognize talent. Who's got, what talent, what aptitudes do they have, and try to structure your teams accordingly. Public speaker, you know? And communication. Clear communication. Sometimes, having clear communications a little bit scary. But that's something that you need to learn how to do. And clear communication can sometimes include some confrontation, right? Sometimes there's uncomfortable things that you need to talk about. You have to get good at having a little bit of confrontation sometimes, and talking about those things that may be a little uncomfortable. Maybe identifying something that somebody's done wrong, or maybe you're pointing out a shortcoming or, you know, offering a little bit of criticism and some lights.

Isaac Oakeson: I've noticed with confrontation, it might really suck when you're first starting out as a manager. When I was thrown in as a supervisor, I had to get with the guy -- He no longer works at the company, so I think this is okay. My first week as a supervisor, I was thrown into confrontation with an employee that had to get tested for drug and alcohol and didn't pass, and it just kind of snowballed from there. But that was my first week as a supervisor. And, you know, that was rough. But I've noticed in my current position, there's confrontation just -- It seems to be very frequent. And I will say like, it is difficult, but the more that you have to deal with the confrontation, it does get easier because you're quicker to get the confrontation over with. "We Got a problem here and we need to fix this"

Mark Oakeson: And quite frankly, those confrontations or that adversarial situation that may come up, sometimes those are the biggest bond-building moments that you can have with a colleague or a teammate at your office. I've had built some relationships with people that I've had some huge conflicts with. But at the end of it, we come out with a better relationship in the long run, because we've kind of been through the trenches together and have forged that little bit of a bond because we worked through that adversity together. And so it can be a positive on the other end.

Isaac Oakeson: There's a book I remember I read called crucial Crucial Confrontations. There's also one called Crucial Conversations. But both of them are very good if anyone's interested in checking those out. Don't be afraid of it. It's just going to come up naturally anyway. And the sooner you talk and get it over with, the smoother things will be.

Mark Oakeson: As a manager, you gotta get used to dealing with that stuff and learn how to handle it.

Isaac Oakeson: Hey, I think we've nailed quite a few things for people to look forward to in 2021. If you fall into any one of these categories, then there's definitely a tip for you heading into the new year. So Mark, appreciate you jumping on. Appreciate your time. Mark brings the experience to the conversation.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah, I'm the old man in the conversation.

Isaac Oakeson: Thanks Mark.

Mark Oakeson: Thanks.