We’ve all at some point wondered how the process to become a civil engineer in other countries goes and what requirements and examinations people need to meet and pass in order to get the desired initials, whether they are P.E, C.Eng., etc. Today, we’ll take a closer look at how this process takes place in the UAE, as well as a deep dive into a really important topic most civil engineers simply, and mistakenly, ignore: Mental Health.
Abdulrahman Atif and Ghanim Kashwani are two civil engineers from the UAE who have been friends since the old college days, and they’re the hosts of the Civil Engineering Vibes Podcast. They both got their bachelor's degrees from the American University of Sharjah, and while Abdulrahman got his Masters from Heriot-Watt University, Ghanim got his Ph.D. from the same university. Focused on the ever-changing modern world, the goal of their show is to talk about topics most universities nowadays do not have in their core curriculum but that should be addressed, such as entrepreneurship, the need for programming skills, as well as career and personal development.
By elaborating on a period of Abdulrahman’s life in which he went through severe depression and mental health issues, both because of the stress of the work and some personal matters, the three of them dive deep into the reasons we may have mental burn out as civil engineers and how simply letting go of the stigma related to mental health can be beneficial. After all, it’s okay to go to therapists. Once we get past that, they argue, we can avoid those uncomfortable periods.
Ghanim Kashwani – https://www.linkedin.com/in/ghanim-kashwani-90739389
Abdulrahman Atif – https://www.linkedin.com/in/abdulrhmanatif
Civil Engineering Vibes – https://www.civilengineeringvibes.com
Institution of Civil Engineers – https://www.ice.org.uk
Heriot-Watt University – https://www.hw.ac.uk
American University of Sharjah – https://www.aus.edu
The School of Greatness: A Real-World Guide to Living Bigger, Loving Deeper, and Leaving a Legacy, by Lewis Howes – Grab the book here.
Engineer Your Own Success: 7 Key Elements to Creating an Extraordinary Engineering Career, by Anthony Fasano, P.E. – https://engineeringmanagementinstitute.org/book
Dream Big (Netflix Documentary) – https://www.netflix.com/br-en/title/80217136
Practical Engineering Youtube Channel – https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMOqf8ab-42UUQIdVoKwjlQ
The B1M Youtube Channel – https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6n8I1UDTKP1IWjQMg6_TwA
Podcasts From the Engineering Management Institute – https://engineeringmanagementinstitute.org/podcasts
Man of Iron: Thomas Telford and the Building of Britain, by Julian Glover – Grab the book here.
Built Bar. Use the code CIVAC to get 10% off – https://civilengineeringacademy.com/built
Structural Engineering Basics – https://civilengineeringacademy.com/seb
The Ultimate Civil PE Review Course – https://civilpereviewcourse.com
The Ultimate Civil FE Review Course – https://civilfereviewcourse.com
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Civil Engineering Academy’s Youtube Channel – https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPeFLBZ2gk0uO5M9uE2zj0Q
If you need exams, solved problems, or courses, make sure to check out our home base – https://civilengineeringacademy.com
Reach out to Isaac – [email protected]
Transcript of Show
You can download our show notes summary here or get our transcript of the show below!
Isaac Oakeson: All right! Welcome to the Civil Engineering Academy podcast. I just want to welcome my guests here, Abdulrahman and Ghanim. Thankful for you guys jumping on here with the Civil Engineering Vibes. I think you've got a fun name for that podcast. So welcome to the show! We connected over podcasting and I just wanted to ask a lot of questions because I think, as fellow civil engineers, it's always fun for our audience. Mainly my audience has been in the United States. But they like to hear what engineering and civil engineering is like in other countries, and a lot of people like to potentially work in other countries as well. But just kind of hear your own journey into this world of civil engineering and then we can dive into some other stuff. So I guess my first question is why don't you guys tell me a little bit more about yourselves and why you started the Engineering Vibes podcast?
Abdulrahman Atif: Well, actually me and Ghanim know each other from university. We got bachelors degress from the American University of Sharjah. We were doing civil engineer together. So after that, you know, we went through different roads and then we come back again. We studied --- Then Ghanim went to the PhD after we've gottten the Master. But we did the master's in the same university, Heriot-Watt, and we keep in touch as friendship together, we keep our close friendships together. So we were having compassion with the podcast, actually. Like, especially in the podcast, like we were -- So it was random idea, actually, last year. It happened like, you know, before COVID and everything. And when I mentioned the podcast website, like, how about opening a podcast? Like, we were like complete [inaudible]. We said, Why not?
Isaac Oakeson: Why not?
Abdulrahman Atif: Yeah. I was [inaudible] because he's the guy who initiated the idea. Like, he said, what about opening a podcast? I said, why not? And you know, we start figuring things out and here we are after one year.
Isaac Oakeson: That's great. Ghanim is that the story you understand it? I mean, is that how it went down? Is that how you started?
Ghanim Kashwani: Yeah, definitely. I think the main purpose of civil engineering is simply just to improve the humanity life. And this is the true mission of all civil engineer: how to improve people life. And this time with the new generation in civil engineering, we can impact other people's life not only by doing the infrastructure work, also by doing podcasting. And this is the idea that instead of following the conventional route, we can impact others by giving them the literature about civil engineering, why civil engineering. So this is driven by that purpose and mission as civil engineers.
Isaac Oakeson: That's great. So I guess the next question I've had is, you've this a little bit, but your own journey into civil engineering. Did you guys just always know you wanted to do civil engineering or was it something you had to learn that's the area you wanted to go? And I know you've gone to some different schools, so maybe just give us some high level how you got into civil engineering, where you went to school, and maybe what you do right now. Abdulrahman, you want to go first?
Abdulrahman Atif: Okay. Up to you. So it was different for me. Like, at the beginning, when I joined university, my [inaudible] was different. I was to be actually in computer engineer, but there was a story happening at that time. And after that I wanted to go to the petroleum to see how the petroleum market go, because, you know, especially in the MENA sector of petroleum, it's a good market there, it's huge. So you can take it in two roads, either chemical or civil engineering. I started first chemical engineering, but after I took a couple of courses, I said "No. I cannot know that". So I shifted to the civil engineering. But when I took civil engineering at that time, like, I liked that, I liked the structure bar. I loved the structure bara and the construction, and how to do the steel design and concrete design, and I use software like ETABS and SAP. And the management, specially management, when I started working at internship, like specially when you talk [inaudible] and this stuff. So after that, you know, I joined as an engineer and here I am after after ten years of experience in civil engineering.
Isaac Oakeson: So, and right now you're working. Are you like a project manager now working in construction? What are you doing?
Abdulrahman Atif: I'm a civil inspector. I don't know if you know it in the US, but here we have [inaudible], we have it called consultant and contractor. Like, it's like the same like [inaudible] and the contractor. But here it's more general for consultant. Consultants not to [inaudible] and to even the structure of design. So I'm the guy who goes to site and check the quality is picked for that. You know, whether the contractor doing the work as per quality standards, safety, the progress management. So I'm the inspector there.
Isaac Oakeson: That's good. I think you learn a lot in that position too. That's a good spot. So that's great. Thank you for sharing that with me. Ghanim, what about you? What made your decision to go into civil engineering? Tell us a little bit about where you went to school and what you're doing now.
Ghanim Kashwani: So, one of my core values in my life is transcendence and impacting others. And the first year I did my bachelor in the same university where we met in 2005, it is the American University of Sharjah. In the first year of engineering it's the foundation engineering for all engineers. They were giving an orientation about different kinds of engineering and I saw that civil engineering is one of the most engineering kind that you can have tangible impact. And I was surprised that civil engineering saved more lives than medical doctors by creating the sewage system and the waste water treatment. So I said, "Well, it suits me", because, you know, serving humanity is one of my core values, as I said, and since then I did it all the way to the PhD. Then I did my chartered engineer in civil engineering with ICE, and it's become an ongoing mission more than major or work for me. It's an ongoing mission, you know? My specific area is materials, construction materials, some [inaudible] material, but yet I can enjoy structures, geotechnical, surveying. Any kind of civil engineering it will be like music to my ears.
Isaac Oakeson: That's. Great. And, and what are you doing right now?
Ghanim Kashwani: So right now I'm a scientific researcher with the NYU of [inaudible], New York University, and also I'm an advisor of the society of engineering in the UAE. I'm the committee member of ICE here in UAE. I'm supervising different masters thesis for different universities, Rochester, Heriot-Watt, and I'm just enjoying doing my lab work and my own publication.
Isaac Oakeson: That's great. Well, you both sound extremely busy in your careers and what's going on in your world. And I think that's fantastic. So, I touched a little bit upon this, as we were talking a little bit earlier, but a lot of people like to know what the process is to become a professional engineer. Like, what's the best route? Here in the United States, we have to take two exams. We have to do the FE, we have to take the PE to get those initials and become a professional engineer. What is it like where you are at UAE and just maybe dive into that just a little bit for us, and either one of you can answer that one.
Ghanim Kashwani: So, if I may answer this question since I am the official advisor of the society of engineers in UAE. So we don't have something like -- The most famous professional engineer certificate in the world, like PE in North America or PEng inCanada, we have chartered engineer in the UK and Australia. But in our area, like in the Gulf area here, we don't have the same concept of professional engineering. However, recently, we have established a new chapter called Professional Engineering, where we recognize the people with professional engineering. Here we have a different route, but soon we will have it. For example, in our neighborhood, Oman, now they started having their own professional chapter. But yet for the international company, and especially the oil and gas companies like Halliburton and Schlumberger, once you have this credential, it's easy for you the process to get the job. Even the international consultants of [inaudible] that exist here.
Ghanim Kashwani: So having the professional engineering license definitely would help you in this region. And now we have many professional bodies, especially in Dubai. And I think having academic certificate, it'd be not enough for you as a civil engineer. You need to have the vocational certificate, the CBD concept that continuous improvement. Engineering is not something you get at once. You need to maintain it, you know? I know many engineers that once they go to management role, they lose their engineering skills. And maybe I kind of go parallel with this idea where I believe that you need to practice engineering here and there. And this is why I believe that, even for the academic, you need to have this collaboration between industry and academic. You cannot be in your own academic bubble and you keep publishing and you don't practice engineering. The same thing with the industry. So we need this healthy ecosystem where academic professional certificate are integrated together. And I think this is the true concept of being engineered, you know, in the end of the day.
Isaac Oakeson: Perfect. I'm just curious, Abdulrahman, and we talked a little bit earlier, but it sounds like you can take the NCEES exams, which is what's in the United States, but you can also get the UK, that chartered engineer. I mean, which one do you go for if you have these different options? Is there one over the other or are they the same? How do we do that?
Abdulrahman Atif: Well, actually it dependd. That should be up to you. Like, for example, if you go for American companies, some american companies accept a PE. Like, you can do it here at the NCEES the FE and PE. And also you can choose a chartered civil engineer, which is the british one, which is more common here, especially in the multinational companies. However, now these days what is become popular is the PMP, which is does the professional project management, because whenever you want to grow up to the one management stuff. It's more [inaudible] and people are going for that because it's more common and more popular here in the middle East, especially if you go into construction, or even if you go to the multinational company. There recognize a PMP very well. Even sometimes they recognize it better than the master. I saw some company. Yeah. Like, the PMP is so professional and so well known here.
Isaac Oakeson: So would it be a good combination to even get both of those, get a professional engineering license or a CEng, and the PMP?
Abdulrahman Atif: In my opinion, this is my personal opinion and I don't know about the other. Like, get either ICE or PE, because if you get that chartered civil engineer, then you can equivalent to the PE in some States in the US. But you have to check that before you go that. But for the PMP, you have to go separately. You have to go through a separate road. But even so, if you have some CBD, you can convert that into PMP. I said, you's still have to do that test.
Isaac Oakeson: I got you. Okay. Well, that's good to know. You guys live in a fun area. It sounds like you have options. I mean, here in the United States, it's like you basically -- I mean, there are people that have the PE and they also get the PMP license as well. And that is recognized for more people that go into like project management, more and more. I would say over here it isn't a requirement, but it definitely is getting more recognized, for people to have that. I guess this next question is for someone that maybe considering going into this field, what do you guys consider in the civil engineering field? What is fun for you and what is really difficult for you? What do you see as really challenging? What do you see as really fun? I guess, Ghanim, do you want to go first?
Ghanim Kashwani: Well, my major is construction materials. I have been fascinated with materials, especially cement-based material. I think the history of civil engineering, if you go back to the history, how the civil engineering have been developed, it was associated with the development of the materials. Like for example, the first material was stone. Then we went to wood all the way to the Roman concrete. Then we discovered the hydraulic concrete, the Portland cement. And then now we are talking about carbon fiber, nano-technology, graphene. So materials play a major role in developing the landscape of civil engineering, you know? So once you have the new material, you start having a new design, and this is what we call integrated design, material and design. But definitely there is other aspects now it's becoming really important civil engineering. We talk about circular economy, the new technology, the digital twin, resilience of the infrastructure.
Ghanim Kashwani: I mean, there is many, many things that we can see it as a civil engineer. In my opinion, many people they talk about sustainability. The sustainability development goals, 70% of them is related to civil engineering. And I believe resilience is the new sustainability in civil engineering. I totally believe that resilience of the infrastructure it will be the big focus now for civil engineering. And I may advise the new engineers who are coming that they start knowing all the new programming, you know? Maybe as civil engineering before we didn't focus in the new programming, you know? Like Python and other stuff. But these days we need to know the new technology. Now surveying highly dependent on the drones, you know? So if you don't have this tech skills, it will be hard, you know? So this is how I do the forecasting for civil engineering.
Isaac Oakeson: Okay. So for you, it sounds like what's very fun for you is definitely the materials aspect of civil engineering. And it sounds like the challenge that you see is this resiliency that is coming up or we need to design stuff to have better resiliency. So that's fascinating. Abdulrahman, what about you? What do you consider fun in this world of civil engineering? What do you consider very difficult in this world? We lost you.
Abdulrahman Atif: Oh, it's okay. For me as a civil engineer, I would consider, like, do what you love. Like, do whatever you will love. If you love it as a major, just go for it. That's the reason why I recommend people is to get mentorship before they're going to the major, because for me mentorship for majors are more than to go to know what about the major, what's that thing. [inaudible] For me fun about civil engineering, like he said, it's the new stuff. Now the new tech Ghanim said. And also something like other things, like there are some challenges I like to do it. Like some challenges and some management, especially the management [inaudible]. I love it for a civil engineer, like, when you do the management part, when you control things. Challenges [inaudible] like, you know, especially in the site where it's a hectic [inaudible] you are under pressure. So it depends like. But I recommend people if you want to, if you want to do it, if you love it, okay. It's now in the middle East starting to open what's called apprentice program now in some university, what is similar, like, co-op [inaudible], where you can work and study in the same time. So get your experience, know what's [inaudible] and see yourself. If you'll love it or not.
Isaac Oakeson: Okay. That makes sense. That's great. You know, um, I was researching a little bit on your website and one of your podcasts, you mentioned mental health on one of your podcasts and just some of the challenges that engineers might be facing with mental health. I guess, what mental health challenges do you do you see that are out there and how can people tackle those challenges? Abdulrahman, you want to tackle that?
Abdulrahman Atif: It's okay. Look, we love to speak about mental health because mental health is a big topic. And because, to be honest, personally, I suffered from it at the beginning wedhen I start working in construction, when you have long hours, you're under pressure, the competition from the market and you know, [inaudible] sometimes the construction, and no one is talking about that. And no one ever informed me, even personally, for mental health. I went through to severe depression sometime down the life. And part of it's because of the way that we work in the civil engineering, part of it's other personal stuff. But no one was talking about that. Like, I never see anyone like talking about mental health in construction. We never see it. Like, me and Ghanim, we never see it talked in construction. So we said, why we not talk about it? Because to be honest, in civil engineering, there are some challenges. We are not telling you it's the best major in the world. That are some challenges, and that's okay. You accept that. Because it's not me only who felt that. We know some of colleagues has felt that. I personally speak with some people and they have the same difficulties and same challenging. They went to [inaudible], some of them want to collapse. But no one want to speak about that.
Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. So you were working, you had schooling, I believe. You're trying to tackle that. And just the pressure of deadlines kind of just all gets to you, I'm sure. Ghanim, what advice do you have for these kind of challenges?
Ghanim Kashwani: I think first of all, we just need to remove the stigma about mental health, you know? I don't know why many people have this stigma, you know? The brain is the most complex organ in your body. And for example, if you have a stomach ache, you will go to the internal medicine with no shame. But if you have a complex thought, you have the stigma. So first of all, just remove the stigma about mental health. And there is nothing wrong to go to therapists. Second thing, as engineers, you need to give yourself the permission to do mistake, you know? As engineers, we are very strict to ourselves. We don't give us the permission to do mistakes. So once we are doing mistakes, you know, we are getting very harsh on ourselves. And I think this is the catch: That's fine.
Ghanim Kashwani: Doing mistakes or if you are failing that's fine. Failing forward is the right approach. You learn it as [inaudible]. Fail Forward, move on. And other people's opinion in the side should not be your fact, you know? Maybe you will listen to hard words from your boss, anything. That's fine. You know, it's not the fact. You just go, you pause, you see what's right. And I think in positive psychology, they call it like filtering. You need to filter what is going on in your day. So it's very important to know these techniques and I think a bit accreditation for engineering. My own adevice that they should update the curriculum. You know, we need this major courses, fluid mechanics, mechanics of materials, but courses like mental health, entrepreneurship should be embedded these days, especially for gen Z, you know? The average age for gen Z to open their own companies is 22 or 23. So many people, they don't want to go to a 9-5 job anymore, and especially at civil engineering. If you see civil engineering entrepreneurs these days, they're increasing, you know? And we need to embed these courses so that, again, we go to the idea of the ecosystem. We provide a civil engineer, there are eligible to be fit with any part of the ecosystem.
Isaac Oakeson: That's great advice. I really do agree with that. That's kind of why I wanted to start my own thing with Civil Engineering Academy. And I really liked that you said to fell forward. I think all of us make mistakes and, you know, we can get through those when we're failing forward. I think that's great advice. Abdulrahman, anything to add to that?
Abdulrahman Atif: First of all, I agree with what Ghanim said about all of that. Because I tell you, even like -- First of all, eah, it's okay to make mistakes, because, from personal experience, I'm telling you, like, I first did at the beginning of my career and you know, people [inaudible] of the construction and [inaudible]. And sometime I was taking it personally, and this stuff. So yeah, I agree with that. You have to filter these things. In addition, I agree with [inaudible] because the courses [inaudible]. The most of the university, what I see, they have to change it, because what I call the courses I call it the medieval courses here, like most of the university is doing. Really. Like, they are teaching you like some courses, like it's already the same course for 10, 15 years. Market is changing. Market is dynamic now. For example, [inaudible], from my personal experience, when I was taking drawing in 2005, 2006, now in the market people are using AutoCAD. They used to teach us drawing manually. Besides AutoCAD. [Inaudible]. Who the hell will do the manual now? [inaudible] when I graduate.
Isaac Oakeson: I didn't know that was offered. Yeah. I've never seen that one offered.
Abdulrahman Atif: Yeah. In addition, for example, like a communication skills, like soft skills, they never taught us that in the university. Like presentation, public speaking, talking. This is an important skill you're going to -- You need to grow up, especially if you grow up as a civil engineering, going from technical to management side. No one taught us that. And in addition, we didn't have personal experience. Like, we didn't have experience. When I graduated the market was different. [inaudible]. We didn't talk 10%. This is what I believe from what we study.
Isaac Oakeson: No, I think you're right on. A lot of people come out of school, they'll have a very technical background, and sometimes you might think that that's going to be your whole career, and it might be, if that's the route maybe you want to go. But most people want to move into maybe a management role. Usually that's kind of where the dollars go, you know? You can find more money in the management side. And there are challenges there because you're learning more people skills. And like you said, learning how to speak and talk to other and deal with confrontation, being able to solve problems. I agree with you. If universities could have some of those things added to them -- I think they're learning, you know? It takes time though to implement all that stuff. But yeah, you're right. I haven't heard of a university still teaching old school drawing though. That's pretty interesting.
Abdulrahman Atif: [inaudible] I have a ton of them now. I can show it to you if you want.
Isaac Oakeson: That's that's very interesting. Well, um, let's talk about this. What's a project that you've had that you've been really happy to be a part of, or even something in the future that you're excited to be a part of? Ghanim, do you want to talk about that? Is there a project you've been excited about that you've been a part of?
Ghanim Kashwani: So mainly what I'm doing right now, because I am an academic. I haven't really been in the site too much except in collecting data for my graduate studies. So the current project that we are doing here in UAE, we are officially, we have the first digital engineering chapter and the first professional engineering. So having our first professional engineering certificate and to contribute in that, I think it's very interesting, because we are living a true legacy. I think, as I said in the beginning of the talk, the true mission of civil engineering is to serve humanity and it is an ongoing mission. And once you make the world a better place and more resilient than the one you found it, then this is the true meaning of civil engineering. So this is what I'm trying to do for my kids. And when they will grow up, they see that they have more platform, more options, you know? I think this is all about the human development. They have more options to flourish in engineering. So have a professional engineering, the professional mentality, the experience then I think I'm participating with something big. There's a famous documentary called Dream Big. I think also civil engineers should be dreamers.
Isaac Oakeson: That's very good. Thank you for sharing that. Abdulrahman, how about you? Is there something you've been a part of that's been exciting or even something in the future you want to be a part of that is exciting to you?
Abdulrahman Atif: Well, there are a couple of project, like, when I startworking. Of course, you know, I work in different projects, like infrastructure and construction. There are a couple of project like it wasn't like enticing me during my career and my education. But because from each project, you take something you can benefit from it. You cannot take full -- You know, there are some like [inaudible]. But some of them are really excited to you. However, my personal thing like, what is the project, what I love me, me and Ghanim, is doing this podcast. The civil Engineering Vibes podcast. It's really like -- I like it. Like, I don't know, but it's exciting me. First of all, me and Ghanim we talk what we want. Like, we talk about, for example, mental health, dark side of civil engineering, which is [inaudible] that was a side engineer challenge because, you know, we don't want to also [inaudible].
Abdulrahman Atif: We have to do on entrepreneurship and these things, and AI and smart city, because, you know, no one taught us about this at the unversity. And in addition, like, you know, this is something new fields. Like, in the media and civil engineering, this is something new and that's exciting. Like, you can you can express your message to hundreds of people globally. And instead of doing like whatever you can [inaudible] you can globally. And by the way, and this is all us opinion. Like maybe we are right now, we are correct. We don't know. Maybe we are [inaudible] So, that's what excites me now.
Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. The whole beauty of a podcast is you have a voice and you can talk about anything that's on your mind. So that's awesome. I'm glad you guys are doing that. Just as we wrap up here, is there any resources that maybe you guys would recommend? A book or anything that what would help anybody coming into this field or even that's in this field that could help them grow? Ghanim, do you have anything on top of your mind?
Ghanim Kashwani: Yeah. So I highly recommend that there is a book called the Iron Mind by Thomas Telford. So Thomas Telford is the first president of ICE, Intitution of Civil Engineers in UK. But Thomas he would tell his -- His story, although he come from Scotland to become the first president in London, an ICE and the first industrial revolutionm and how he discovered the iron. And he started designing the bridge from Iron. The whole saga, you know, of him is inspiring for how to be a civil engineer. And as abdulrahman said, definitely there will be challenges. But it's this great bio for civil engineers. In my opinion, maybe him and Bernie, the most influential civil engineers in the history.
Isaac Oakeson: Okay, great. We'll link that book. That's awesome. Abdulrahman, what about you? Is there any resource out there that you think would be helpful to the Civil Engineering Academy audience?
Abdulrahman Atif: There are many, couple of books or resources. For example, I'm a guy more audio than books, you know? Because I hate reading books because you know, I like audio books. For me, if you want, the School of greatness by Lewis Howes. It'sa great book if you read about it. And for example, if you want to even go listen to podcasts like Civil Engineering Academy, you can call us into them, you know? And also like, there's others by Anthony Fasano, the Civil Engineering Management Institute. They have great podcasts there and great resources there. They have the Civil Engineering Podcast, [inaudible]. They are fascinating. And if you want to go to YouTube, that's called the B1M construction. They are doing fascinating videos about construction and how the construction, you know, globally. Not in the UK. Globally.
Abdulrahman Atif: And also there are Practical Engineer. A YouTube channel called Practical Engineer, if you want to know more about civil engienering. They're doing a lot of things there. And also, and advice to civil engineers, connect with them. Connect with mentors. Connect with them. Many people are helping. Trust me. Just go to LinkedIn, just go to LinkedIn, add someone, talk with them. "Hi, how are you? I just want to connect with you". People will help. And people will give tips and advice. And also, this is what it's taught [Inaudible] network with civil engineers by profession. So, you know, at least you have some experience.
Isaac Oakeson: That's fantastic. Good resources. We'll try to link all those in our show notes as well for people. But I think everything you rattled off there are excellent resources. Well, as we close up, I just want to thank you guys for joining our podcast. You guys have shared a lot of cool tips and tools and resources, and I think it's been fun to have you on here. What's the best way to reach out to you guys, if someone wants to connect with you?
Abdulrahman Atif: For me, like, if you want, go to the civilengineeringvibes.com. Go there. You can see all our contacts there, me an Ghanim. You can see it. Me and Ghanim's Contact there. And personally, if you want to contact me, I'm available on all social media, on Facebook, Instagram. Tik Tok. Even Tik Tok, if you want. And LinkedIn. So even Clubhouse. You can go there and the contact with the Clubhouse.
Isaac Oakeson: So we'll just head to your website and we will find everything there to connect with you, which is great. Well, I appreciate you guys jumping on the show. I know I want to value your time, and thanks for being here. See you, guys.
Ghanim Kashwani: Thank you.
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