Isaac Oakeson: Hey, what's up everybody? Isaac here with Civil Engineering Academy. Excited to be with you again on another fun podcast episode. Make sure you like and subscribe this stuff. Give it a share with a friend. We really do appreciate it. Today, I actually bring on a past guest, Ed Quesenberry. He jumps on to talk about an organization that he's with in a campaign that they're promoting to help, I guess, the public understand more about what structural engineers do.

Isaac Oakeson: So he is part of the NCSEA, the National Council of Structural Engineers Association, and we talk about what the NCSEA differences are between the other structural engineering associations that are out there, and the campaign that they have going on called weseeaboveandbeyond.com. This is a big campaign to help the public understand what structural engineers do, and pull back the curtain on the stuff that we normally see that's out there in the world, but don't understand how it works.

Isaac Oakeson: And so, this campaign is to help raise awareness, to help get new people into the channels of understanding structural engineering and hopefully going to school to become structural engineers. And that's what the campaign campaign is all about. WeSeeAboveAndBeyond.com. Again, this is Ed. He's a past guest and he is the president of the NCSEA. And really enjoyed talking about this episode, or this campaign, with him.

Isaac Oakeson: I also bring my brother Mark on with me as we throw questions at Ed and have a good conversation about this campaign, and how you can play a bigger part in helping raise awareness for other people to become structural engineers and what we, you know, do as civil engineers in general.

Isaac Oakeson: I think it's a great campaign that other disciplines should be doing as well. But this is specifically for structural engineers. But anyway, that's what everything is in a nutshell. Sorry for the long intro. It's just a fun one. So, Ed Quesenberry is on again, talking about this good stuff, weseeaboveandbeyond.com. And we hope to help promote that mission as well.

Isaac Oakeson: So come join us. It's coming up right after this with Ed as we talk about the NCSEA and it's a fun program to help people raise awareness on this stuff. So it's coming up right after this.

Isaac Oakeson: All right! What is going on, Ed? Thanks for joining us for another podcast episode as, you know, a repeat customer. I appreciate you jumping back on and kind of talking about this initiative that we want to discuss today. So appreciate you doing this again with me.

Ed Quesenberry: Yeah, yeah. No problem. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about this stuff with you.

Isaac Oakeson: Awesome.

Ed Quesenberry: Continue, continue our conversation.

Isaac Oakeson: Exactly. And I've got my brother Mark on here too, because what we wanna talk about today is the National Council of Structural Engineers Associations, and maybe an overall umbrella of civil engineering as a whole as to, you know, get the word out that -- You know, to see beyond what people actually see out there and draw interest for people to jump into the civil engineering world. And specifically we're talking about structural engineering, but you know, this could apply to any discipline within civil engineering.

Isaac Oakeson: So, why don't we back up a little bit and why don't you tell us a little bit more about what the NCSEA does and what that is and your role with it?

Ed Quesenberry: Yeah, sure. NCSEA was established in 1993. So we're 30 years old this year, which is pretty exciting. And it really came about -- I guess, let me back up. At that time in 93, there were several states, larger states, like Illinois, Texas, California, that had structural engineers associations. So they had associations started that were comprised of practicing structural engineers.

Ed Quesenberry: And through that network of established structural engineers associations, there was a group of engineers that got together, I think it was in Denver in 93 or 92, and talked about, you know, the importance of having a national voice. How we can bring all these separate SEAs together into one body and have a national voice for the practicing structural engineer. It was really focused on that. On providing support for the practicing engineer and as well as support for the profession as a whole.

Ed Quesenberry: So, you know, through personal sacrifice, financial and time-wise, these individuals formed this association in 93, and it's just kind of grown steadily from there. Started out kind of focused mainly on giving the practicing structural engineers a voice in the code development process. At the time there were a lot of provisions being put in the building code related to structural engineering that were difficult for practitioners to work with. And so, there's been --

Mark Oakeson: And that's kind of crazy to think about because that that doesn't even make any sense, you know? How can you go about making changes in the code without some kind of input from those practicing in the profession?

Ed Quesenberry: Right. And it's, you know, the code development process is a very complicated thing, rooted in years of history, right? And it's very much an evolutionary thing, but what having NCSEA established allow the profession to do is to have a voice in that process. A stronger voice than they had previously.

Ed Quesenberry: So it really started out as that for the first couple years. But since then, it's branched out into other aspects of advocacy for the profession and for the practicing engineer. All the way from, you know, trying to link with higher education institutions to promote good curriculum for education for structural engineers, building that pipeline of structural engineers for the profession, attracting, you know, K-12 students to the profession by building awareness and educating them about what it is that we do to trying to build more equity and diversity in our profession through scholarship programs for underserved populations to pursue education in structural engineering. I mean, the list goes on.

Isaac Oakeson: Sounds like a big initiative.

Ed Quesenberry: Yeah. Now we have something like 12 or 13 committees dealing with different aspects of the practice of structural engineering, developing programs and initiatives that will kind of advance the cause.

Isaac Oakeson: So Ed, why don't you tell us what's your role now with NCSEA and how did you get there?

Ed Quesenberry: Yeah. Well, I started out -- I've always been a member of the Structural Engineers Association of whatever state I was practicing in. So started out in California, now it's Oregon. And I went up through leadership in Oregon. I served as vice president and president of the state association. And then, as part of that, every state association has what's called a "delegate" to the national, to NCSEA. And so it's kind of like the communication conduit between the state and the National Association.

Ed Quesenberry: After my term as president of SEAO, Oregon, I was asked to be the alternate delegate from Oregon. So we had two delegates at the time and that's how I got involved in NCSEA. I went to my first national conference as alternate delegate. And then soon after became the permanent delegate and served in that role for two or three years. And then that progressed to being asked to serve on the board. Well, actually I joined some committees within NCSEA, and then I was asked to join the board. So I've served about seven years,

Isaac Oakeson: These are all volunteer spots?

Ed Quesenberry: All volunteer. 100% volunteer. So I served on the board of directors for NCSEA for seven years. I'm currently the past president. I'm in my last two or three months of service on the board now, so I'll be retiring off the board here at the end of March. So that's kind of my story, how I got to where I was within the organization.

Mark Oakeson: Hey Ed, can you talk a little bit about NCSEA and their role in getting the Structure Magazine going? Because I consider that kind of an important publication. I've enjoyed, you know, obviously reading that over the years and getting perspectives from other professionals in the design industry. Can you explain how NCSEA was kind of the impetus behind that starting?

Ed Quesenberry: Yeah. Again, that came out of kind of the recognition that we need to have some sort of communication tool to communicate, like, the latest stuff that's going on in the industry across the nation so that we, as a profession, can elevate what we do. And so NCSEA launched Structure Magazine, was responsible for getting all of the initial financial support for the magazine, getting, you know, advertisement, vendors to commit money, firms to commit money to the enterprise.

Ed Quesenberry: It started out, I think as four issues per year. And as it grew in popularity and we could get more advertising income to support the publication, it's now a monthly publication. And we've also collaborated with SEI and Case, which are two other professional associations servicing and supporting different aspects of structural engineering. And so it's kind of a collective effort. It's a separate entity from NCSEA. It's got its own operations staff and editor and financial backing. So it's somewhat separate from NCSEA in that regard, but it is an NCSEA-led initiative.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. That's awesome. It's a good publication, so,

Ed Quesenberry: Yeah, yeah. There's some good stuff. Yeah. Check it out,

Isaac Oakeson: So, you know, as an engineer that's listening to this, maybe doesn't have familiarity with all the structural associations that are out there. They're probably hearing a whole lot of acronyms being tossed around. So, I guess, you know, how does the NCSEA interact with all of these other structural associations that are around?

Ed Quesenberry: Yeah, so I would say that -- It's interesting. There's three primary associations. And I'll go over them and I'm gonna have to probably throw more acronyms at it.

Isaac Oakeson: Okay, that's fine. That's good.

Ed Quesenberry: So, ASCE, they're the big dog. They've been around for quite a long time. They represent kind of the civil engineering profession as a whole. They cover most all disciplines within the practice of structural engineering. Within that, they carved out SEI, which is the Structural Engineering Institute. And that's very much similar to NCSEA in that it's primarily focused on structural engineering.

Isaac Oakeson: Okay.

Ed Quesenberry: But beyond that, it's mainly focused on research. Promoting research and code development. Feeding that into code development. So it's very academically-focused, as opposed to NCSEA which is practice-focused. You know, there's overlap between those two associations, for sure.

Ed Quesenberry: Now, CASE, the Council of American Structural Engineers, is a subset of ACEC, the American Council of Engineering Companies. And so CASE, it's a membership. Its membership is comprised of structural engineering firms. So like, you know, not individual people, but firms will join CASE. And it is focused on more of the business practices piece of structural engineering. So contracts, liability, that type of things. Education on, you know, quality assurance, that kind of thing, to keep your firm out of hot water. Or to negotiate stronger contracts with your clients.

Mark Oakeson: Keep the business running.

Ed Quesenberry: Right. So, so you have these three independent organizations that, historically, have operated kind of in a siloed fashion, just dealing with their piece of the pie, essentially, and supporting it well. But I would say progressively over the last, you know, 10 to 15 years, these associations have recognized that there is some power and some synergy that can be realized by working together.

Ed Quesenberry: And so, recently, we galvanized around in the aftermath of the George Floyd murder, as a profession. We signed a joint vision agreement, a joint commitment, to address underserved populations and diversity and equity within our own profession. And we are working collectively with the other two associations on programs that will help that out.

Isaac Oakeson: That's fantastic.

Ed Quesenberry: Yeah. And so that's one example. A recent example of how we are working together more as opposed to just operating in silos. And I think it's only gonna get better. We have a joint vision for the future of structural engineering that we develop together. And it covers all aspects of the practice and the support of the profession. And we continually are looking for ways, or initiatives, that we can join in on together.

Isaac Oakeson: Love it.

Mark Oakeson: That's awesome.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, I wanna get into kind of like the heart of what we wanted to talk about, and that is a campaign going on called We See Above and Beyond. And I'm hoping that you could describe what that initiative is that the NCSEA is running. And maybe if other disciplines could do more to do the same thing. But let's talk about what that initiative is and what it's all about. So, what is We See Above and Beyond? What's that all about?

Ed Quesenberry: So we see above and beyond is essentially a branding and marketing campaign that NCSEA has undertaken. And it has the intended outcome of building awareness of the structural engineering profession within all aspects of community beyond the structural engineering community. To all those that maybe are outside of the profession and don't really know what we do. But to build awareness, to attract young people to the profession, so we could, again, build that pipeline. And just to generally advocate for the practicing structural engineer, you know, in society.

Ed Quesenberry: And it kind of came out of -- NCSEA has always dabbled in advocacy efforts for the profession. But I think through those years of dabbling, we realized that, as engineers, it's not really in our wheelhouse to be -- You know, get out there in the public and talk about what we do and celebrate what we do and pat ourselves on the back.

Ed Quesenberry: We're really good at doing that to each other, talking about that great trust that we designed. And then that's pretty amazing. But beyond that, it's really hard for most engineers to wanna, you know, get out there and celebrate what we do in the general public, right?

Ed Quesenberry: And so, oftentimes, you know, through these association meetings, the NCSEA meetings that are held, you hear these common complaints like, "Why does everyone think I'm an architect?" You know? I'll explain to them what I do. I design buildings and make sure they stand up during earthquakes and all of that. And they're like, "Oh, so you're an architect?" There's like no recognition that there is a structural engineer involved at all because they just don't know.

Mark Oakeson: Or they say something like, "Oh, you design bridges," you know? Which may be true as a structural engineer, but that's something that they can visualize because they're driving over them, they're driving under them, right?

Ed Quesenberry: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And it's just that kind of lack of awareness. So we go to these meetings and we hear these complaints from the engineers across the nation, and we'll say, "You know, whatever we're doing now is not really working that effectively at addressing these things." So we need to hire a professional.

Ed Quesenberry: And so that's what NCSEA did. We allocated some budget dollars. We hired a branding and marketing agency out of Chicago, Illinois, and partnered with them. You known, we went through a huge kind of strategic planning effort where we, you know, explored what the root of the problem is that we're trying to solve here. And then, once we had that identified, what would be the best way to message this out.

Ed Quesenberry: And we came up with the tagline We See Above and Beyond as a statement that, as structural engineers, you know, we're present in every experience you have in life. You know, whether you're at work or at home, you're in a structure that's likely been designed by a structural engineer. We're always looking above and beyond to the next technology to keep our communities safe.

Ed Quesenberry: So there's a lot of, you know, messaging, essentially, that has been developed. And then we're leveraging social media to get that word out. So we're on, you know, LinkedIn and Facebook, and Twitter. And then any opportunity like this to kind of get the word out about this is taken with great pleasure.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, I think it's a good thing. So the website is weseeaboveandbeyond.com. I really like the website. It kinda shows an image of a scoreboard in a stadium and kind of peeling back the curtain and seeing the structural elements as part of that. Just kind of like, you know, there is a structure behind this facade of things that we see in life. And you know, that comes from a structural engineer that's designing this stuff. So, it makes me hopeful that other disciplines maybe jump on board and trying to get that word out too to really see infrastructure around them.

Isaac Oakeson: I guess a follow-up question to this whole campaign is, why do you think, I guess, civil engineering hasn't been a very sexy topic and people aren't really talking about it that much? I guess, why do you think that is?

Ed Quesenberry: Well, you know, you can equate it to something like, you know, indoor plumbing or even the internet, you know? Civil engineering has been around forever. Some people even say it's, like, the oldest profession in the world. So I think, because of that, everyone's kind of gotten used to the fact that it's there and they take it for granted. They don't even think about what's behind that, what's underneath that. What's behind that glass of that building, you know? They don't think about, "What's holding this roof up over my head?" It's taken for granted. So, in that way, you know, not sexy, it's not thought about, right?

Ed Quesenberry: The other thing, specific to structural engineering I think, a lot of it, and this is what we kind of went through when we were developing this "We See" campaign; these are some of the conversations we had. It's like, "Well, with buildings, most times our work is covered up. It's exposed during construction for everyone to see, but then everyone's really paying attention to the tower crane that's swinging around and all the contractors running around, not thinking about the structural engineering behind that frame." And then the building gets enclosed and [inaudible] board goes up and you don't see it anymore. You physically cannot see what we do. And so, if you can't see it, it is sure as heck is not sexy.

Ed Quesenberry: And then, you know, you kind of think about it, though. Like, the iconic structures that people like revere as engineering marvels, you know, it's the ones where the structure is exposed. It's the Golden Gate Bridge. It's the Eiffel Tower. Or it's something new and shiny, and it's never been done before, like he Burj Khalifa. You know, the tallest building in the world. It's when something like that happens, it's super interesting to people for a minute, but then they go back to their office and they sit in their high-rise office building and they probably don't even think about, you know, why they're not, you know, falling to the ground.

Ed Quesenberry: But anyway. So, it's awareness building that we have to do here, right? And the other thing we discovered, and I've kind of mentioned it, is that the other piece is that we, as engineers, we're technically minded people. We've been trained to do our analysis and do a lot of critical thinking, and we haven't really honed our social skills, our interpersonal communication skills, to the point where we're comfortable getting out in public and talking about what we do.

Ed Quesenberry: And this is what this campaign has really helped. We've built some standard messaging that engineers can use. And, you know, we build the message, we send it out to our state associations, and they post it on their social media accounts. So we get this consistency of messaging out. And it's all very creative, as you said. The kind of the peel back, the facade, to see the structure behind. Visually very interesting. So hopefully people will see it and want to learn more, right?

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. I think that's fantastic.

Ed Quesenberry: And think it's sexy.

Mark Oakeson: So Ed, have you seen any success initial from this campaign? I keep thinking of -- Sometimes I serve on an industry advisory board for local universities, and they're worried about how young people perceive engineering and mostly about how they perceive it as kind of a discipline or a career that's really difficult, right? And if they decide to go into it, it's just like, "Oh, man. There's a lot of math." Which there is, but it's not something that someone can't learn, can't grasp, you know, if they apply themselves.

Mark Oakeson: But that's a concern at the university level. The perception is that engineering is kind of too difficult to even get into in the first place. And so there's other avenues. So, just wondering what your thoughts are.

Ed Quesenberry: Yeah. Well, I think there's two things there. One was the success of the We See Above and Beyond campaign. We're in our second year, so it's still relatively new. But as you probably know, having a podcast, there are metrics that you can look at with social media posts and such. So we have paid advertisements with Facebook and LinkedIn, and with that, we get performance metrics. So click through rates, likes, shares, all of those typical social media things. And the agency that we're working with, the marketing agency that we're working with, has access to kind of metrics from other similar campaigns. And there's kind of benchmarks that we want to meet.

Ed Quesenberry: Well, we've exceeded the benchmarks by 200-300% in the first year and a half of this campaign. So, the metrics are off the chart, which tells us that, you know, our messaging is working. It's interesting to people. They're actually going beyond just the initial post. They're actually clicking into our website to learn more. So it's working. That's great.

Ed Quesenberry: And I have a kind of an anecdote from -- We just had our national conference in Chicago in November. And the NCSEA staff had done a good job. They made QR code printouts and they had put it on the carpet in the hotel as a way-finding way to get to where the conference is within the hotel. And it was a QR code that linked to the We See Above and Beyond webpage.

Ed Quesenberry: And I came in one night after being out [inaudible] and there was a group of people, and I knew they were not engineers. They were with another group that was there, and they were all standing around the QR code with their phones. And they were like, "Oh my God, this, this is so cool." "There's a lot of structural engineers here." And I was like, "Hey, it's working, right?" People are looking at this stuff, they're saying it's cool, they were definitely excited about it. And it's such a simple thing when you think about it, that QR code. But it's so relevant and it's how people are getting information now.

Ed Quesenberry: And so we feel like it's super relevant what we're doing right now, and it's effective. But we're continually looking for new things. We're branching out from like kind of the static visual images like you have seen. We're actually doing some video work now that we're gonna be launching on the website and through YouTube and such. So, just kind of trying to continually look for new ways to get the messaging out.

Isaac Oakeson: That's awesome. Well, I guess to follow up a little bit on engineers in general, but a lot of times we're seeing this increase of AI and computer processing power that's really taking off. I'm sure it applies also to the structural engineering software as a whole. But it seems that, a lot of times, structural engineering is increasingly being viewed as almost a commodity rather than a highly-skilled service. What are your thoughts around that?

Ed Quesenberry: Yeah, I definitely -- You know, it all comes down to perception to me, you know? If people don't understand what we do, they're just gonna assume that it's easy, right? They assume there's some big red button on our desk that we press and the engineering is done. But it's our job as professionals, as practitioners, to educate them.

Ed Quesenberry: And you know, there are professions out there that do a very good job of that, you know? Architects do a great job of celebrating their contributions to society in a very public way. And granted, you know, their work is more easily seen than ours. So that's something that we have to deal with as civil engineers, right? But we have to find ways like the We See campaign to get over that and to open people's eyes to what it is that we do and how it affects their lives.

Ed Quesenberry: If we can make it personal to them, if they can have a personal connection to what we do, then I think we get somewhere. We get past this commoditization. But, you know, to sit back and do nothing and complain about it is, you know -- NCSEA decided that that was just not something we wanted to do. We decided we had to put our money down and try to make a change.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. I remember I had a boss once was like, "Well, don't you just throw it in the computer and it just spits it all out for you?" And it's like, "Yeah, it doesn't really work that way."

Ed Quesenberry: I get calls at work, that's -- You know, some calls from random people saying, "Hey, I need an engineering stamp."

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. Right. I've worked with developers that have that attitude, you know? It's just like, "Well, you know the parameters of the project, just do it. You know, that'll take you a couple days, right?" You know, it's like, "No! It's gonna take longer than that."

Ed Quesenberry: Yeah. So I think it's that instead of maybe those moments where you get those calls and you're like seething inside, you know? Maybe take that as an opportunity to have a broader conversation about, you know, "Well, look. Let me explain to you what the process is here, what we have to do," and maybe you can change some minds through education.

Ed Quesenberry: So I think just getting engineers comfortable with that, that's just a part of what they do. You know, like designing a pipe, a pipe run, or designing a brace frame or whatever it is. You know, learning to talk about what you do and being comfortable with it and getting people excited about what you do, it has to become something that is part of our practice, part of everyday life, right?

Isaac Oakeson: Well, this has been fun, Ed. We're here doing this to help spread that mission to We See Above and Beyond. We're really excited about it. I guess a fun question is, I guess, what's been the funnest part about your participation and involvement with that organization for you?

Ed Quesenberry: Well, a couple things. One, the most rewarding piece for me is just that sense of community that I get. You know, I operate here in the Portland metro market. I'm friends with fellow practitioners, but NCSEA has really allowed me to broaden that network. I have friends that are structural engineers across the nation, you know? Coast to coast, everywhere in between. It's been a huge professional help to me to just get advice. You know, if I encounter a problem that I don't know how to solve, odds are one of the people in my network has solved that problem before, and they can give me some advice. That's been very rewarding to me.

Ed Quesenberry: And also to kind of open my eyes about how different the practice of structural engineering is across the nation. You know, it's not all uniform and homogeneous. The funnest piece for me now as kind of a more of a veteran NCSEA member is going to the conferences and seeing all the young people coming in. Students that are in college coming in, or new grads maybe in their first year or two of practice coming in and getting involved in the association, and just that energy that they bring. That's the great thing about it. For me, that's really fun to see. Yeah.

Isaac Oakeson: That's awesome. There's probably a hunger to learn and to get experience and all of that good stuff. Well, that's fantastic. Mark, any other questions you have for Ed before we wrap this up?

Mark Oakeson: Well, I want to give him a chance to kind of give a little sales pitch here for NCSEA. Why would anybody want to be involved with this? You know, our demographic. We're talking to engineers that are up and coming maybe. But what would you say to those folks that would make them think, "Hey, this is a great organization, I need to be a part of it?"

Ed Quesenberry: Yeah. Well, I guess the first thing I would encourage if you're a practicing structural engineer is, look to see if there is state association, a state structural engineers association that you can join. I think 44 states out of the 50 have state associations.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. We have one here locally in Utah called SEAU, of course.

Ed Quesenberry: Yeah. There you go. So join that. You know, that's where you start. That's where how most people who are involved in committees and leadership within NCSEA have started. Started kind of through their state association and just gotten familiar with how it works.

Ed Quesenberry: And you can always join a national committee. There's no barriers to entry there. So, I would encourage you to get on the NCSEA website, and there's a list of all of the committees that are there, covering all aspects of the practice of structural engineering, from codes to diversity, equity, and inclusion, and everything in between. And then, you know, there's a lot of continuing education offerings that are accessible to members. And so if you're a registered engineer and you need PDHs for your licensure registration and renewal, NCSEA is a great resource for that.

Ed Quesenberry: And last, I would just say, you know, this We See Above and Beyond campaign is a one of a kind. It's the first of its kind. And if you are excited about it and you wanna help, you know, that's a big reason to join NCSEA and get involved. This is gonna be a long-term initiative. This is not just a one- or two-year effort. This is a sustained commitment from NCSEA to the profession. And we're always looking for fresh ideas and fresh perspectives that might help us build this campaign and, you know, keep it going.

Isaac Oakeson: Awesome.

Mark Oakeson: Awesome.

Isaac Oakeson: Ed, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for jumping on the podcast and explaining this whole initiative. And I've enjoyed learning more about it, and hopefully we can promote it a little more for you as well. So do our share.

Ed Quesenberry: Yeah, that's great. Again, appreciate the opportunity and love this brother dynamic you guys got going on here. This is good. This is good for the profession. Thank you so much!

Isaac Oakeson: I'm the better-looking one though.

Mark Oakeson: No, no, no, no, no, no.

Ed Quesenberry: No comment.

Mark Oakeson: No.

Isaac Oakeson: All right. Well thank you, Ed. We'll see you next time.

Ed Quesenberry: See you, guys. Bye.

Isaac Oakeson: All right! I hope you enjoyed that episode with Ed. Definitely go follow their stuff. Go check out the website weseeaboveandbeyond.com.

Isaac Oakeson: And you know, if you need help on your own journey, obviously to become a Erofessional engineer, that's what we're here for. So go check us out at civilengineeringacademy.com. You can find practice exams, full-blown CBT exam simulators, and we've got awesome courses to help you with your FE or your PE exam. And just a teaser, we've got our California Seismic in beta launch right now. So it's gonna be good stuff. And that's coming out soon as well.

Isaac Oakeson: So if you need any help with anything regarding those exams, check us out at civilengineeringacademy.com. We're just excited to help you out with stuff. So thanks for being here. Thank you Ed, for jumping on as well, and Mark. He's obviously a repeat guest and my brother helps run some stuff as well. So anyway, thanks for being here. We're excited. Give us a share and a like, and we'll see you in the next one. Bye!