Isaac Oakeson: Hey, what's up everybody? Isaac here with Civil Engineering Academy. Excited to be with you on another sweet podcast episode. Today I bring on a special guest, Makenzie Allen. She was a member of one of our -- Actually both of our courses, The Ultimate Civil FE Review Course and The Ultimate Civil PE Review Course. And she has a fascinating story as to how she passed both the FE and PE.

Isaac Oakeson: Raised by a single mother that was a hairstylist and found herself getting into the world of engineering and how she did that. And now she was able to pass these exams. It was a huge milestone for her. We love to talk to previous students of our courses and hear their success stories. And Mackenzie's is amazing.

Isaac Oakeson: So I think you're really gonna enjoy this. If you've been preparing for your FE or PE exam in any form, or even if you're going through school preparing for a career in civil engineering, this is definitely gonna be an episode you're gonna want to check out. So, anyway, we're excited to share this with you.

Isaac Oakeson: And if you need help with your FE or PE exam, definitely check us out at civilengineeringacademy.com. We have the courses to help you ace this stuff and we're ready to help you. So anyway, without further ado, Makenzie Allen is coming up right after this.

Isaac Oakeson: Hey, I wanted to jump on real quick and let you know about a free resource we developed for you. You can find it at civilengineeringacademy.com/peguide. And this will help you jumpstart your studies for your PE exam. So if you're in the hunt and you're just thinking about the PE exam, this guide will help you get through the process of figuring out everything you need to do, from the PE exam's prerequisites that you gotta figure out, the must-have materials that you're gonna need for the exam, any approved calculators, what groups you should join, exam secrets, and much more. It's all in this guide that we've got developed for you. It's completely free. You can go check it out at civilengineeringacademy.com/peguide. Just put in your email and we'll get you that information as soon as the email comes to your inbox. So go check it out, civilengineeringacademy.com/peguide.

Isaac Oakeson: All right! We are live and running. And so Makenzie, thank you for joining me on the Civil Engineering Academy Podcast.

Makenzie Allen: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to talking with you.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah, this is gonna be fun. So, I always love to start these, and I've done this with many others, but just kind of give us a background of how you found yourself into this world of civil engineering. How did we end up here?

Makenzie Allen: Yeah! So I kind of took a long route. It's a long story, but I'll start at the beginning. I'm from Oklahoma. I was raised by a single mom. She's a hairstylist and I grew up kind of going to the salon with her and interacting with her customers, which I feel like was really nice for me. I got to spend all day with my mom and then also gained some really good social skills, I feel like, early on in my life, talking with adults and everything. And she's had some of those customers and worked with some of the same women since I was six years old. So I feel like they've kind of become an extended family for me. And they are some of my biggest supporters. So I definitely would not be here, um, without them or without my mom.

Makenzie Allen: So, from that point, I guess -- You know, she always encouraged education. I am also a first generation in my family to go to college, and so I just felt like that was always something she saw for me to be successful at and to, you know, have just a good foundation to get to a point where I would be able to go to college. So whether that was, you know, tutoring, I struggled with reading at a pretty early age. And it was actually because I needed glasses, we found out. But I took a lot of, you know, early reading courses and things like that. I took ACT prep. It was basically anything possible. She was just so encouraging with that and just made everything available to me that way, you know, I was gonna be successful in school.

Makenzie Allen: And so, in high school, I loved math and science. Those were my best subjects for sure. But I graduated with above a 4.0. So I was very good in school ,and I've always really, really loved school. I love college and everything. But, you know, being a first generation and not really having, I guess, people to ask about college, I didn't really know the first thing about deciding on a degree or how to pick a school or any of that. But luckily Oklahoma has this really cool program called Oklahoma Promise. And Oklahoma Promise basically is, if you are in a family whose income is below a certain threshold, you also meet the the GPA requirement, and there's a few other things that I had to meet, they offer to pay your tuition if you go to an in-state school, which is huge.

Isaac Oakeson: Wow, that's awesome.

Makenzie Allen: Yeah. And they offer to pay that for four to five years of your education. So that kind of, I guess, helped me start looking at, "Okay, what degrees can I get that is gonna get me outta school four to five years so I'm not graduating with a ton of debt, but also set me up in a space where I have the job stability when I graduate and I'm not gonna have to be seeking, you know, a master's or potentially have to go back to school one day?"

Makenzie Allen: So with that and then kind of my love for math and science, I got kind of focused on the STEM fields, I guess is what I started researching. And then engineering was really what kind of spoke to me the most just because I've always been interested in bridges. I've always been interested in like geology and rocks and just kind of all the science things and math things in the world.

Makenzie Allen: And luckily for me, one of my mom's customers actually was a petroleum engineer and he offered to let me shadow him one summer. And so I was just like, "I'm gonna go see kind of like what his day-to-day looks like, learn a little bit about his style of engineering in terms of petroleum, and just kind of investigate that." And so I think I spent like a week at that firm. I just got to either sit in on meetings or I would go into different people's offices and they would kind of just give me the rundown of what they did throughout the day. And I thought that was super fascinating.

Makenzie Allen: And so, after researching, I guess petroleum a little bit more, and at that time, this was like 2013, 2014, I feel like oil was humongous. It was booming, it was a great career to be in. And so I was like, "I'm gonna declare that I wanna be a petroleum engineer." And the school that had the best possibility for that was OU, the University of Oklahoma. And luckily I got in and met all the criteria and everything. I think I even got a few extra scholarships on top of the Oklahoma Promise. So it was really nice for me just to take that financial burden off of my mom, and then knowing that, "Okay, I can get out of here in four to five years and also, hopefully, not graduate with a ton of debt."

Makenzie Allen: So I went into OU as a petroleum engineer and quickly realized that college was way harder than high school and middle school. It was so hard for me. Once I got to my core classes in petroleum, I think my GPA was, like, a 2.9 or something. I mean, like, I just really, really was struggling and that was kind of the first time that I had ever struggled in school. Just because like I said earlier, I had over a 4.0 and I just never felt like I was that challenged in school until I got to college.

Makenzie Allen: And so I kind of started looking into what is challenging me so much with these petroleum classes. I actually made it all the way to my junior year. It was my first semester in junior year, I finished that semester and that was one class in particular, I think it was called Rock Properties, it was impossible. And I studied so, so much and I think I got like a 30% on an exam or something. And I was just like, "Maybe petroleum engineering is not for me." And that's what made me kind of start considering, "I should change my major."

Makenzie Allen: And so at that point in school I was like, "Man, I'm already dearly three and a half years into this. How am I gonna still meet my plan of graduating in four to five years, that way I can meet this scholarship and get out of school with a good degree?" And my counselor at the time, or I guess advisor at the time at OU suggested to look into mechanical or civil. Just because the classes were pretty similar to what I had already taken for petroleum and so they would likely transfer and I would maybe end up with a year delay in my degree. And civil, I think, immediately was the most interesting to me because I'm such a visual learner and I was like, "everything with civil is visual. You can see roads, you can see bridges, you can see buildings."

Makenzie Allen: And so that was the one that I ended up deciding and I feel like I've never looked back since then. My classes became so much easier. I really enjoyed studying for them because I thought it was super interesting. So it's kind of amazing how you can try to force yourself into a niche, but if it's just not your learning style or if it doesn't interest you. I feel like I made college way harder because I chose the wrong space to begin with, but at the same time, I'm glad that that happened because now I feel like I just appreciate civil engineering so much more.

Makenzie Allen: But luckily I graduated -- It only took me an additional year. So I graduated in five, so I met my goal, which was great. And then, I mentioned earlier when we were talking before we started recording that I got an internship in 2018 from a company called HNTB. They're a transportation firm and I just celebrated my five-year work anniversary with them. So, it's been a great space. I love that was kind of my journey, but it definitely was worth it, I feel like to kind of self-assess myself in college and say, "You know, these classes are hard." And hey were hard for a reason. I just feel like they didn't fit my learning style at all. So I'm grateful for civil engineering.

Isaac Oakeson: That's amazing. That's a really neat story.

Makenzie Allen: Thank you!

Isaac Oakeson: I'm trying to -- I mean I'm sure there's a lot of challenges in there. I'm sure your mom is really proud. Normally, being a female in this engineering industry, you know, is, I don't know, sometimes it's difficult I guess. But do you have any tips for anybody that may be going through the college process or maybe considering this field? Maybe what challenges you need be up against?

Makenzie Allen: Yeah, I think, you know, having a mentor, whether that's, you know, professionally or having someone you can look to in college, I feel like is so important. Lucky for me, I have, you know, my mom is the strongest woman of my life for sure and she was definitely there to kind of support me. But I also sought out other individuals that were in civil engineering or even just in engineering in general. So in college they have the Society of Women Engineers, it was something I was heavily involved in. And so that was just a space, like you were saying, to be surrounded by other women that are seeking and pursuing the same thing that you are. And when I was in petroleum as that major, my first three years of college, I think I was one of like four females in that degree.

Makenzie Allen: So in a way it was, I feel like that [inaudible] Some good ways I guess are always speaking up, always asking questions, never feeling like I don't belong in a space just because I'm a female. I feel like we all have something great to offer in terms of just our thinking process and our backgrounds and everything. So, I think just understanding that you're never really an outsider. You just have to make sure that you're asking questions and have some people that you can lean on, whether that's even just people that are in your class. I feel like it's always good to have an outlet to talk about things you're struggling with and just have people that are there to pick you up because it's hard to study for engineering. I mean, any engineering is hard. And there are gonna be classes that are challenging for sure. So just having a good study group, a good mentor, I feel like is the most important things.

Isaac Oakeson: That's great advice. Great advice. So walk me through this a little bit. While you're in school, though, part of, you know, graduating I'm sure it was probably preparing for your FE exam. What was that experience like for you?

Makenzie Allen: Yeah. So OU actually did this interesting thing where my senior year, they made it a requirement to take it before you graduated. And like I said, I didn't really know the first thing about civil engineering when I changed my major and I kind of had to just kind of learn on the fly because I changed my major so late. And I didn't realize that the FE and PE were even a thing because that wasn't a thing in petroleum engineering. And it isn't really for most engineering. I feel like we're kind of the only discipline that almost requires you to have the PE just because it sets you up so well professionally, I feel like, to get other jobs.

Makenzie Allen: And so when they announced this change, it was my senior year, I believe it was going into my second semester. So it was probably already like January-February timeframe. So we're basically all like, "We need to start studying immediately because we're gonna have to take it before the beginning of May." And, I don't know, I had talked to a couple people at my work, because I had an internship through that year, that were like, "Oh, you know, I studied for a few weeks, like, you'll be fine" kind of thing. And I just took that to heart. And so I didn't study near as hard as I should have.

Makenzie Allen: I took it probably, I think it was like the first week of May, and I remember walking in and (1) I was not prepared at all for how long of an exam it is. You have no water, you barely get a snack for that test. Just the endurance you need for being able to sit and think for six hours at a time alone I feel like you have to prepare for. And then (2) just the confidence I lacked in terms of the types of problems that they asked me. I just remember sitting there and I was like -- I just felt like it was almost a waste of my time just because I was not prepared.

Makenzie Allen: So I did fail my first attempt. And I think I was just, I was comfortable because I already had a job and I was like, "Oh, I can wait to take this again." And that was probably mistake number two on my part because I waited an entire year after I graduated, which -- I feel like studying once you have a full-time job is near to impossible. I don't know how people do it with children. I think it's amazing because balancing time when you're working full-time is such a feat. So now I'm faced with I'm working full-time, I need to take my FE, and now I'm kind of like behind, I guess, my coworkers because most of them have already passed their FE.

Makenzie Allen: And I guess I started feeling like a little bit of shame towards that or just, you know, I just didn't feel like I was -- I don't know. Like, I couldn't be successful in civil engineering, I guess is kind of where my thought process started going because I was like, "I'm a year late on this now I'm gonna have to wait to get my promotion," because I was kind of pending at my next move up, basically, in my firm because I needed to get my FE. And everyone I was surrounded with had passed it and I just never met someone that failed it.

Makenzie Allen: And I was like, "All right, let's try this one more time." And I did set out, I studied for two and a half months and I felt like I was pretty diligent the second time around. I didn't take a class, but I did like dedicate the time to practice problems and everything. And when I got in to take it the second time, I felt like it was 10 times harder than the first one I took, even though I felt like I did prepare. It was just the questions that were on it. I don't know. I just remember feeling, like, during the test,, that I almost panicked I guess. Just because I was like, "I feel like I've taken the time to study for this and it seemed hard." So I knew kind of the outcome already as I was taking it that I probably wouldn't pass it the second time. So I think it's every --

Isaac Oakeson: Your second time taking it and you're fist still feeling not confident? Okay.

Makenzie Allen: Yeah! I don't know. Testing, honestly, has always been a struggle for me. I get really bad test anxiety. But to me, I do feel like I took the time to study for the second one. So it was kind of surprising to me, I guess. But still I wasn't taking a course or anything. So I think that's when I realized once I got my results back from the second one and failed a second time, I was like, "We're in crunch time now because now I need this to get a promotion and obviously the self-studying isn't working for me, and I need something that's a little bit more structured."

Makenzie Allen: And so I think, I remember just getting on -- I think I googled it. I was just like, "How to pass the FE?" And something, one of your YouTube videos I think, came up and it was like "Tips to Pass the FE/PE" and I started watching it. And immediately when you started talking, you mentioned how you failed your PE and I was like, "Okay." Like, this is someone who actually understands what it's like to fail. Because like I was saying, I just felt so, like, uncomfortable in the space I was in just because everyone had passed around me and I felt like -- I don't know, I almost just felt like I wasn't smart enough. But that's not -- Failing doesn't make you not smart enough, you know?

Makenzie Allen: And so once I listened to your video, I think you mentioned at the end that you had a course and so I immediately got on and looked, and I initially thought, I was like, "Man, this is kind of expensive. This is an investment." And I think I even emailed you. I probably still have the email, but I sent you a message saying, "Hey, I've invested in a lot of materials already. I've taken this thing twice," which, you know, it's like 200 bucks each time to take. And you offered me a discount code, which I thought was so nice. To this moment, I was just like, "This person actually is kind and understands what I'm going through."

Makenzie Allen: And so, yeah. So I took your course. So I took my second one in May. I signed up to take my third FE in October. I think I immediately started your course. And it just provided so much structure, just like school. And like I was saying earlier, I've always been really good at school. I'm good at meeting deadlines and I feel like just having something like a video basically that's keeping you accountable every day was what really fit my learning style the best and my study ability the best. So just getting through that. And then getting to my exam, I was so confident in all the questions. I remember leaving there thinking I'd gotten most of them right. Which was such an opposite experience from when I experienced the two other times.

Makenzie Allen: But I think again, that comes from you hit home so much, like you have to practice all these problems. You can't just watch the videos, you have to practice, practice, practice. And so I took that to heart and I probably worked like 300 problems or more. Like, I worked so many problems. Yeah. But it makes such a difference when you get to your exam. You're like, "Oh, I've done this type of problem a hundred times." So you can tackle it then.

Makenzie Allen: So luckily I passed my FE that time around. And then that kind of leads into my PE exam.

Isaac Oakeson: And you got promoted?

Makenzie Allen: Yeah, I got a promotion.

Isaac Oakeson: Awesome.

Makenzie Allen: Yeah. Immediately, which was really, really nice. In my firm, you start as an engineer, then you moved to an engineer one and you can't move to an engineer two until you have your EIT. So that was a big move for me.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, that's fascinating. So you found Civil Engineering Academy by just Googling us and finding us. I'm so glad you emailed us too. You know, and this goes for anybody that's out there that's struggling to pass these exams. You know, I definitely know the pains of failing these exams. I was a repeat taker for the FE back when it was paper-based, but way back when and you could actually change which exam you wanted on the fly. You could do general or civil. And I remember the first time I took that, I tried to take it early in my college, you know, career and didn't have all the stuff that I needed to pass the civil. And then you always have the one friend that's in the same shoes as you and they manage the pass and it's just like, "What the heck?"

Makenzie Allen: Yeah. And then you question yourself. You're like, "What did I not do right?" "What is wrong with me?" kind of thing. And it's like, that has nothing to do with it. It just has everything to do with every single person is different. I think that's what I had to realize. I can't compare myself to others because that was only keeping me down, you know? I had to realize, "Okay, it's gonna take me more time to study and it's gonna take a class for me." And that's okay. It doesn't make me any less smart than anyone else. That's just the type of things that I need to be successful. So, I feel like once I realized that, that was good.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, let's walk through your PE journey. What was your preparation like? So, you passed the FE what was your preparation like for the PE exam?

Makenzie Allen: Yeah. So the PE now is different because you can take it as soon as you want. And I thought that was interesting just because I had basically been studying since I started my job. So I was like, "Well let's just move right into studying for the PE then. It'll be no different." So I think I took maybe a couple months off and then got back into studying for the PE. And at the time I was like, "Maybe I don't need a class because Isaac has prepared me with, like, some sort of structure for studying." So I decided not to do a class.

Makenzie Allen: And at this point I was probably, I guess two years out from -- because you have to have four years of experience to actually get your license. So when I started studying I was at that kind of two-year mark out of school basically. So still pretty early I feel like to even be thinking about the PE just because the depth part, I feel like, is what you need to have experience in. I was gonna pick transportation and, for most of my career, I've just done transit, which doesn't really deal a lot with some of the standards and just the books and things that are required for the transportation exam.

Makenzie Allen: So that was kind of an eye-opener for me. And immediately when I started studying for depth and I chose transportation, I was like, "Man, this is gonna take probably more time for me" just because I haven't ever done signal design, I haven't ever really looked at interchanges before, anything like that. Really had never been in the Green Book other than, like, intersection sight distance. So it was definitely a big feat, I feel like, even then to start thinking about it.

Makenzie Allen: But I was like, "I'm gonna dive in and start studying." I studied for probably three and a half months, almost four I think, and I had it to take in, I guess this was 22. So May of 22. And like I said, I didn't take a class or anything, but I do feel like I was diligent other than -- I had serious fear of missing out on things with my friends. And so, anytime someone has something to do on the weekend or whatever --

Isaac Oakeson: Summer.

Makenzie Allen: Yeah, summer. I would make excuses and be like, "Oh, I don't wanna miss out on this experience so I can miss a day of studying," you know? And kind of got into that mindset and I feel like once you miss, you know, a week or you know, two weeks of days doing that, that can be pretty detrimental, I feel like, to your success on the exam.

Makenzie Allen: So I definitely did that throughout that three and a half month stint that I had and I, you know, did study, but like I said, I feel like I was pretty easy to make an excuse like, "Oh I can do this tomorrow" or "Oh I can get to that subject" or "I think I've studied that subject enough." And so when I got to the PE, I felt pretty comfortable about the morning just because, like I said, I had kind of just been recently studying that I guess for my FE prep, but the depth portion was so hard.

Makenzie Allen: And I definitely didn't practice enough like warrant problems. I think I had like four or five warrants on that test, which was crazy. Which those are not that complicated, but you have to understand how to go to the MUTCD and understand kind of the process of even solving those problems. And there was a lot of conceptual problems that I was not at all prepared for either.

Makenzie Allen: And that was the very first exam that they -- Or one of, I guess, the first rounds of exams that they had moved to computer-based testing too. And I didn't feel like I had practiced enough in the PDF formats of all of the standards just because I just took way too long. Even ran out of time on the exam towards the end. So I just had to kind of start marking answers.

Isaac Oakeson: Guess.

Makenzie Allen: Yeah. I did remember that from your FE class. You were like, "never leave one blank." So I did at least put an answer, but I struggled through the last half of it. So anyways, when I got those results back seven days later and failed, I was pretty bummed because I did spend time studying for it, but it obviously wasn't enough. And that's so hard to face, I guess. Just because you're like, "Man, I do feel like I have still kind of missed out to some degree in life for the last three and a half months." I haven't been working out like I'm used to or I haven't been able to work overtime like I used usually do or go on vacation or whatever that is. And so then it's like, "Man, I have to take this again?" Like, it was just so hard for me to deal with.

Makenzie Allen: And so then I was like, "All right. This is why I don't self-study. I just need to use Isaac's class." So anyway, I decided to take it. Again, I waited a whole year. I'm big on that. I like to just wait as long as I can before I have to take it. But I do feel like that helped me kind of get my head space back and kind of get the confidence again. Like I said, you get in this space after you fail, kind of like, you know, "How do I get this done?" Like, you start kind of over-analyzing why, like, you're the one that failed and everyone else can pass it and stuff like that. And so I had to overcome all of that.

Makenzie Allen: And then, I signed up for your class in February of 23 and I think this was the point in my life that I was so selfish. I was like, Hey everyone, work, friends, family. I can't hang out with you for three and a half months because I have to pass this exam. This is so [inaudible] but I do feel like that was one of the best decisions I've made for myself just because I was able to stay on schedule. I think out of, you know, from February to May 31st when I took it. I think I missed like one or two days of studying, which is crazy.

Isaac Oakeson: Wow.

Makenzie Allen: Yeah, I was super, super dedicated. I studied two hours a day after work. I studied four hours a day on Saturday and Sunday. I did both your depth and breath course just because I wanted to have kind of just the best basis to do the best I could on the exam. And once I got through all the videos and your practice problems, I did some supplemental material through the School of PE as well. So like I said, I think I just practiced until I couldn't practice anymore on problems.

Makenzie Allen: And going into it the second time, I was way more confident. I felt like I could tackle the conceptual problems really easily. I was super familiar with all of my standards, which I feel like saved me so much time on the test. And even if I got to a problem that I was unsure of, I was able to kind of critically think through it because I was like, "Oh, maybe it's like this other problem I've done." And so I kind of knew after leaving it, I was like, "I feel like I passed this." And I got my results seven days later and I did. So I feel like the class was definitely worth it.

Isaac Oakeson: How did you feel when you saw your pass?

Makenzie Allen: Oh, gosh. So that was such a crazy day. I got my results at 7:00 AM and I texted my boyfriend and I was like, "I cannot open these." Like, "I'm terrified to open these results." But only because I was like, if I open them during work hours, I'm gonna either be really sad or I'm gonna be really excited. But like I said, I was like pretty confident that I passed it, but I was just so, like, not ready to be disappointed, I guess, if I didn't.

Makenzie Allen: So I waited until 2:00 PM that day to open them. I mustered up the courage at 2:00 PM. And it's nice because when you open them, you see green or red. So immediately you kind of know. And it was probably the best moment ever after that. Like, I texted everyone I knew. My mom met me for drinks after work and it was just like such a big, like, relief moment, I guess. You realize you don't have to ever take a test again. You realize all the struggle that you face going, you know, through my failures of the FE, through my failure of the first time taking the PE. It was all worth it, even though it took me a lot longer than most, I feel like. It was just, I've dedicated the time and I finally did it. So yeah, it was a big deal. It was a big relief, for sure.

Isaac Oakeson: That's so awesome. Yeah, you know, getting results, you know, your emotions are all over the place.

Makenzie Allen: Yeah!

Isaac Oakeson: And when I took it, they used to send you in the mail, and if you took it in October you would get results right before Christmas. So it'd be like the best or worst Christmas.

Makenzie Allen: Oh my goodness. Yeah, I had several friends that did that. I even had friends that studied for the April exam that was right before the pandemic happened and it got canceled and moved to October. So I'm glad I didn't have to go through any of that, but I did hear stories of how crazy that was too.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah, there was not a lot of happy students then. And I even got the director of the NCEES to come on our podcast to talk about that.

Makenzie Allen: Oh my God.

Isaac Oakeson: Go check that out.

Makenzie Allen: I'll have to listen to that.

Isaac Oakeson: They started a podcast later but they wanted to get the word out.

Makenzie Allen: That's funny.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, what do you think you enjoyed the most about the course, our PE course?

Makenzie Allen: That's a good question. Sorry, my cat is meowing in the background if you hear him.

Isaac Oakeson: That's okay.

Makenzie Allen: I enjoyed the most, the schedule. Like I said earlier, I think it's nice when you open it up, you have every video that you need with all the modules laid out exactly like they have it in the specifications, which I feel like was the biggest thing I struggled with when I was studying by myself. Because having to pull all that information together and try to figure out what you need to study takes a lot of time. So it's nice once you open the course up, that's all done for you.

Makenzie Allen: And then you provided the homework planner, which I felt like, for my style of learning and just how I am and work, I work really well toward the deadline. And so you said, "Okay, do these homework problems, get through these modules in this week." And it's laid out over, like, a 12 or 13 week period. So that was really nice, too. Just the structure that you start with, I feel like is so important, saves you so much time because trying to do that when you're self-studying, I feel like, you can easily get distracted or easily spend too much time on just that part of it when you really need to just move on and start either reviewing or start practicing problems. So you start with that really good structure.

Makenzie Allen: And then from there I feel like the content you provide from what I've experienced with some of the others is it's exactly what you need. There's nothing more than that, which is nice. Because I feel like you can get bogged down with some of the review books and things that I've seen with just over-achieving material that's probably not ever gonna be on the exam, whereas yours is exactly what you need.

Makenzie Allen: And I feel like most of the practice problems that you offered were very similar or almost exactly like what I saw on the PE, which was really, really nice. Just because, like I said, that gives you the confidence if you get it in a conceptual form. You can kind of think through that better because you've seen it or seen it something similar to that. So yeah, I feel like the structure is very, very helpful.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, that's great. What's suggestion you may have for someone that haven't been able to pass this exam? Maybe they've done it three or four times, they're just not getting over the hump of doing this thing. So any tips around people struggling?

Makenzie Allen: Yeah. No, that's a good question. I think you have to self-analyze, you know? Have you taken a course? If the answer is "yes" to that, have you tried a different one? Have you tried, you know, if you're self studying, I guess, you know, what materials have you had? I feel like what happens when you are studying, if you take a practice exam and then try to take the same one, you're not really benefiting from that other than, yeah, you might solidify the subject, but you almost start to memorize.

Makenzie Allen: And I feel like that's not what you need when you're going into something like the PE or FE. You need to have a foundation of problems that are all very similar to one another. That way, when you're faced with a problem like that, you can think through it versus just memorizing that one problem.

Makenzie Allen: And so I feel like, you know, if that person has gone through a course, if you're retaking that course, I could see maybe a benefit of just like working through the practice problems and stuff. But you also probably need to seek out additional material or additional help elsewhere just so you are getting kind of a well-rounded foundation of whatever subject you're struggling on. That way it's not so, I guess, repetitive or you feel like you've kind of exhausted all your options.

Makenzie Allen: I know that there's so much material out there that's offered. And I will say the School of PE had some pretty good review books that I used as well in comparison with your course. So I feel like just having those two things kind of helped me solidify exactly what was gonna be in, like, a certain module or a certain subject.

Makenzie Allen: Yeah, I just feel like you have to self-assess and see what you're doing and see if you can try something new. Because I feel like they say insanity is doing the same thing over and over again. There's obviously something that you personally are doing that needs to change, whether that's your class or the way you're studying.

Isaac Oakeson: I kind of hear two things out of that. One of them, at least, that I'm taking away is, a lot of times your attitude towards the exam also has a big effect. Like, if you think, like, you hate you hate the NCEES or every problems have to get you, they're tricky all the time. Like, if you're going in that way, you've probably already set yourself up for failure. And it just kind of builds on each other because every time you take it, you know, you just start hating more and more and more.

Isaac Oakeson: But, yeah. And the other thing is, like, get exposure to a lot of different things, you know? You know, we have our course. There's plenty of other material. But you gotta mix things up. You've got to get a new set of eyes, a new set of problems on what you're practicing. So good advice.

Makenzie Allen: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Isaac Oakeson: What tips do you have for those taking the same depth exam as you for Transportation? Any tips there?

Makenzie Allen: Good question. I felt like the Six-Minute Solutions book that I used had the most similar types and styles of problems that I saw. But also, just now that the standards and everything are all in PDF format, practicing problems in your PDFs is so helpful but not relying on CTRL+F. I feel like everyone I talk to is like, "Oh you can just CTRL+F." It's not that easy, I promise you. The way they have it set up on the exam is very similar to your CBT simulator, which I really appreciated. I thought that was a great resource as well because it was super similar.

Makenzie Allen: Some of the resources, like the Roadside Design Guide, you have access to the whole manual. So yes, you can CTRL+F the whole thing. The Green Book, you can only do that per chapter. So you still have to have kind of an understanding of, if you need intersection side distance that's in chapter nine. Like, you at least have to have that ability to know where you're going in the green book.

Makenzie Allen: So I guess just don't default to thinking you can just search for stuff because that's not the way it goes. But when you practice the problems with those standards in PDF format, you kind of get used to seeing the chapter headings. You get used to seeing where the information is or where to go to look for that information. And I thought that was the most beneficial, especially for the conceptual type of problems that were on there. Just because those are hard to know immediately what the answer is. I feel like you almost wanna take more time on those just because they trick you, I feel like, on those a lot. And so if you kind of have an idea if they're asking about soil stabilization or something that could trick you into going to one of the standards for that.

Isaac Oakeson: And the tricky part about that, I mean, if we're talking about like those conceptual, theory kind of problems, is a lot of times they'll have, you know, all the answers are probably correct, but you're trying to choose like what the most correct is.

Makenzie Allen: Exactly. Yeah. Or sometimes they'll have, you know, the ones where it's like 1, 2, 3, 4 and is it one and two? Is it one, two and four? You know? And I had a lot of those as well.

Makenzie Allen: I'm glad you brought up answers though. I feel like that's a good tip on both the Breadth and the depth portion is looking at the answers as well as the question because it could help you with your units, it could help you in conceptual style problems of, like, "what is it they're actually looking for?", and also just kind of seeing -- You know, I guess if it's like a geotech problem and they're looking for the dry density or something, just looking at kind of what the answers are could help you get a better idea. If you're just totally stuck on a problem, you can back-solve the problem with the answers, things like that.

Makenzie Allen: So I feel like that helped me a little bit too if I was just totally stumped on a problem during the exam. Was just trying to kind of critically think through what information do I have here in this problem.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah, it's nice that they have the answer selections there so you can reason them out sometimes.

Makenzie Allen: Yeah, exactly.

Isaac Oakeson: And make a good judgment call. Yeah.

Makenzie Allen: Yeah. They give you some good clues sometimes.

Isaac Oakeson: Any other tips around the theory type questions? Usually, that's the number one complaint I always hear. It's how to prepare for theory questions and it's like, it's so hard to give you a good answer about that because, you know, they could ask you anything really.

Makenzie Allen: They can ask you anything.

Isaac Oakeson: And they could ask you stuff not in the handbook. So, it's a challenge.

Makenzie Allen: Yeah, those are hard. And you provide, you have, like, the additional 20 problem conceptual. That again kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier. You just can't memorize all the conceptual problems that they can ask you. There's a million. So again, just kind of taking your time, reading the problem, read exactly, like, what they're saying.

Makenzie Allen: There was one, for instance on my exam, I think it said something like, what would be best for soil stabilization or something. And it was like fiber log, silt fence, and they gave me a few other options. And the keyword there was "soil stabilization," right? And so you kind of need to seek out those keywords that they give you in the problem. But I do still feel like practicing them is good. So like, the practice exams that you have have quite a few conceptual problems on them.

Makenzie Allen: The CERM I think has -- I guess just like their general sections in the CERM of, like in the soil section or structures, they kind of go through more definitions. Like, sheepsfoot roller pictures and things like that. I feel like that's important stuff to have and just kind of read through. Even though it is a lot, it does take time, you'll be surprised at how much that can help you on problems like that as they come up just because, I feel like, having that background or just having seen it once or twice as you're studying, I think helps you just attack the problem that much better.

Makenzie Allen: But yeah, it's hard to answer that. I feel like just exposing yourself to as many as you can is really your only solution. It's really hard to prepare for them.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, when the exam first went CBT, a lot of people were, you know, already ready to dismiss the Civil Engineering Reference Manual, which used to be, like, the Bible for preparing for these exams. And I would tell people, the handbook is, you know, gonna be your go-to source, obviously. That's it. That's all you got. But it doesn't really teach you the concepts. It's just charts, figures, equations.

Makenzie Allen: Right.

Isaac Oakeson: If you wanna still know that, you have to get some sort of lecture material or get the CERM so you can read up on those topics because still there's value there. So, yeah. I'm glad you brought that up.

Makenzie Allen: Yeah.

Isaac Oakeson: Well, any other tips surrounding the PE exam that you would wanna share with anyone else?

Makenzie Allen: I think I just wanna reiterate being -- You know, this is your moment. And I feel like it's such a big time of your life, it's a big chunk of time of your life as well. But it's important to take the time. Like, having gone through kind of a couple stints of failing each one, it's a time suck for sure if you don't pass. So my biggest advice is just take the time to study and prepare because it's so worth it. It sounds like a lot of time. "Okay, I have to study for three or four months." But that three or four months in terms of the rest of your life is nothing.

Makenzie Allen: So inform your work, inform your friends, and let them know what what you've got going on. Mine were all very understanding. I feel like I got little encouraging messages throughout it as well and I really, really appreciated that. And find, you know, your schedule. Find a good class. Find the materials that you know are recommended or that you've heard through work or other people that have taken it. I feel like seeking out advice from others is super important as well, just to see how they passed it.

Makenzie Allen: But I think the class and being selfish with my time were the two big takeaways for me. And I feel like it was just so worth it to practice as much as I could during those kind of like three and a half to four months that I did.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. Well, I wanna end with the question that I started with a long time ago, and that is, did you think that tThe Ultimate Civil PE Review Course was worth it?

Makenzie Allen: Yes. A thousand percent. Absolutely. In both cases, both FE and PE. I learned my lesson. I am not a self-studier. I need a class. And I feel like your class was perfect for both exams and highly recommend both the breath and depth for the transportation PE for myself. But I know that the depth also covers all the other disciplines too, and I'm sure they're just as good. So, I definitely recommend it. I feel like it saves you so much time and you have a community on Facebook that you can ask questions too. I feel like I was constantly asking questions and you have all the support you can need. So, I feel like that's just another leg up when you're trying to prepare for these exams, so.

Isaac Oakeson: Awesome. Well, if anyone's interested in that, go check it out. You can find both those courses on our homepage at civilengineeringacademy.com. You can also find them individually on their own websites, which is at civilfereviewcourse.com and civilpereviewcourse.com. They come with lots of goodies, lectures, video practice problems, exams. All the good stuff to help you crush those things.

Isaac Oakeson: Anyway, Mackenzie, if anybody else had questions, they wanted to learn from your experience a little bit more, or anything along those lines, what's the best way for them to reach out to you?

Makenzie Allen: Yeah, I'm happy to chat. I'm in both the FE and PE Facebook groups. So find me there. You can also message me through email at [email protected]. I'm also on LinkedIn as well. Just Makenzie Allen. It's M A K if you're looking for me. But yeah, I'm happy to chat more. Happy to help answer questions or anything if anyone needs help. So, thank you so much for having me.

Isaac Oakeson: Thank you, Mackenzie. We'll maybe talk to you later in the future.

Makenzie Allen: Yeah, sounds good. Bye!

Isaac Oakeson: See you.