Isaac (00:10): All right, we are live and running. Hey, thank you everyone for joining us on another podcast episode. We do appreciate you joining the Civil Engineering Academy podcast. If you haven't liked or subscribed, definitely do that and share it with a friend. We always appreciate passing the word along, but I'm excited today because we're going to discuss an article that comes up quite often. In fact, it's yearly and we like to talk about it. In fact, I bring my brother Mark on, and that is an article from the ASCE titled The Best Places for Civil Engineers. And we're going to talk about that again this year, discussing where the best places are, which they come up with that with a variety of factors. So we're going to talk about how that list is generated and why these places that they've ranked are the best places to work for civil engineers.

(00:55): So with that, without further ado, let me bring Mark in and we will get this party started. Hey, I wanted to jump on real quick and let you know about a free resource we developed for you. You can find it at civileengineeringacademy.com/peguide, and this will help you to jumpstart your studies for your PE exam. So if you're in the hunt and you're just thinking about the PE exam, this guide will help you get through the process of figuring out everything you need to do from the PE exams, prerequisites that you got to figure out, the must-have materials that you're going to need for the exam, any approved calculators, what groups you should join, exam secrets, and much more. It's all in this guide that we've got developed for you. It's completely free. You can go check it out at civileengineeringacademy.com/peguide. Just put in your email.

(01:41): We'll get you that information as soon as the email comes to your inbox. So go check it out, civilengineeringacademy.com/peguide.

Mark (01:52): There we are.

Isaac (01:54): What is up, Mark?

Mark (01:55): Hey, good to be here again. Always a good time. Excited to talk about this. It's interesting this list this year that's been generated from

Isaac (02:06): ASM. Mark feeds me all the good stuff and there's a topic we want to hit, then we want to talk about it. So this is going to be good. So we're talking about the best places for civil engineers to work. I guess as a quick overview, what are your thoughts about this article just as a -

Mark (02:27): Well, my thoughts are, it's interesting that you hear the phrase follow the money and that's kind of what's happening with this list. Those places that have the most, I don't know, maybe political will or motivation, and it could be good economic motivations because there's more people moving in and

(02:51): Things are hopping. Those places that are investing in infrastructure tend to be the ones that have the most civil engineering jobs and so they tend to rank higher. And so those places that are hopping, Isaac, that need the infrastructure, they're the ones that need civil engineers. And it's interesting to see how those rankings change over the years. I was kind of taken back by Dallas Place this year. We'll talk about that, but I actually visited Dallas earlier this year for the first time and it's an impressive place. I like Dallas. It was a fun being there.

Isaac (03:41): You always read articles that Texas is exploding with people coming there. I have no doubts it's been risen in the ranks. Why don't we talk a little bit about some of the data that they use, some of the metrics and the data that they use to generate this list first before we dive into it, but what are your thoughts on how they generated or found the data? They do this every year, but what are some of the key components of that data that they're reporting on?

Mark (04:13): Yeah, so they look at how many civil engineering construction jobs are in an area that factors in. I don't know if all these things are weighted specifically. I don't know how the inner workings of this ranking works, but they look at obviously the availability of jobs, so how many jobs are there? Then they look at the quality of life. And so they use metrics like how much are groceries, how much are housing costs, what are healthcare costs in the area, those kinds of quality of life metrics. They use that as a measurement as well.

Isaac (04:58): Cost of living.

Mark (05:00): Yep. Cost of living. Those are the main ones. There's a third one here, Isaac.

Isaac (05:07): Salaries.

Mark (05:08): Salaries. There we go. There we go.

Isaac (05:10): The number one one, I bet.

Mark (05:12): Yeah, yeah, yeah. How could I forget that one? Salary. So they throw that in the mix too. And I think those are the primary. And in that quality of life too, they look at the amenities that the area has, what kind of hiking trails and local recreation opportunities that are in an area as well. But yes, salary. So

Isaac (05:39): Somehow - How can I forget that? Yeah, you can't forget that. So somehow they've quantified some work-life balance scenario and put a number to it or a weight to it too.

Mark (05:51): Yeah. And we all know how indexes work. They usually peg some benchmark back in history at 100, and then they use that as a relative comparison going forward, and then that's how they create these rankings. But yeah, it'd be interesting to know the inner workings, the gears and the cogs of how all those calculations work. But yeah, those are the metrics

Isaac (06:21): Throw

Mark (06:22): Into the stew, into the mix.

Isaac (06:24): Well, let's go over some of these metrics. Let's maybe look at, I don't know, the top five, maybe top 10. I don't know, maybe some highlights here. But the first one that they list, and they do this every year since 2019, goes all the way up to 2022, and they talk about with each of these, the net change that has happened with each city. But the number one metropolitan area is currently Los Angeles, which I think has risen up a level, but it's always seemed to be ranked high and its four-year average ranking is a 1.5. So what's your thoughts on Los Angeles being number

Mark (07:07): One? Well, Los Angeles, I mean, the Olympics are coming. Summer Olympics, they get a host those fairly soon again. And so that's driving a lot of infrastructure as far as transportation, public transportation. They're trying to bolster some of those public transportation systems. And I mean, until this year when they kind of got hit with a lot of rain, they've had flooding and some damage caused by flooding this year. Up to this year, they've been in a pretty bad drought down there in Southern California. And so I know a lot of their infrastructure is being driven by the need for water systems, water delivery systems, getting water from other locations. And I know Southern California, they try to import their water mostly from, I think from Colorado river type locations to get most of their water taken care of. And so a lot of their infrastructure surrounds that need for water to get into Southern California.

(08:22): And yeah, so there's just a lot of horsepower, political will behind funding a lot of those projects, and that's spurring a lot of opportunity for civil engineers to get

Isaac (08:35): Involved with those things. Well, I'm going to run through maybe the first few. So for those listening, you can tune in, but number one was Los Angeles, number two is Houston, number three is Denver, four is Chicago, five is Dallas, which has skyrocketed up eight places as a highlight. And also just as a low light, New York City has dropped 10 places, but your top five are those. Six is Washington DC, seven Atlanta, eight New York City, nine Phoenix, 10 Seattle. Any of those kind of stand out to you?

Mark (09:18): Well, I think it's interesting how high Dallas has jumped. I was reading that they think pretty soon Dallas is going to overtake Chicago as essentially the third largest metropolitan area in America. And again, I really liked Dallas. It was a cool place. A lot of things happening there. It's not surprising. There's a lot of opportunity for people economically to move there, make a nice life. And yeah, it's not surprising, I guess, that Dallas is moving up. And then Houston, I mean, a lot of the same things happening in Dallas are happening in Houston. They have ports there too that drive a lot of their commerce. The aerospace engineering industry is pretty big there too, right?

Isaac (10:12): Yeah. I mean, if you're looking at this in terms of states, Texas has got two there.

Mark (10:21): Right. So Texas is a big. Yeah, it's a beast. And it's heading towards matching California as far as economic activity and the size of the economy that's in Texas. It's getting close to matching the size of California. So it's a happening place.

Isaac (10:48): So other ones on the list that are attractive, I think, is you got Denver. I think that's kind of a hotspot for civil engineers. I know I worked for a consultant in Denver. It always has an opportunity for engineers over there. There's just something always going on for you to have a job over there. Chicago is on, again, big city. But I mean, as I'm marching down the list, some of the things that pop out to me is that Boston rose up nine places. Detroit came up 14 places. Sacramento came up 21 places, and San Diego came up 22 places, even though they're at the bottom. You got a ton of cities in California. And in reading the article, it seems like the main thrust of that is that salaries were bumped up quite a bit. I know salary's usually a huge deal. If you're looking at economics in the states and things going on today, it's like housing prices have risen like 150% and our salaries have gone up like 10%.

(11:59): So it's a challenge.

Mark (12:03): Yeah, it's a challenge. And so those towns that have a big demand for infrastructure, but maybe haven't seen the huge increases, I mean, we've all seen increases in housing prices. It doesn't matter where you live,

Isaac (12:17): But

Mark (12:18): Maybe there's not quite the increase that other places are seeing. And so those indexes kind of balance each other, and then you get some of these cities bouncing up in the rankings. It's nice to see Detroit climbing that too, because Detroit in the recent years has just been hit really hard economically. And so it's good to see some revitalization going into that town.

Isaac (12:45): I wanted to ask you what may be some challenges and considerations for engineers that see this list and they're seeing what's ranking high, and so they're thinking about maybe going to Los Angeles or any of these other top fives. What challenges do you see in making that decision?

Mark (13:07): Well, there's a lot of challenges. I personally have gone out of town. My home, I grew up here in Utah, Salt Lake City area, and it's always been my home. I've had chances to work in St. Louis and Kansas City, primarily in Seattle. And whenever I've traveled for work for assignments that have been more long-term, not just a business trip, it's been tough relocating the family a little bit. So there's always that logistics issue with uprooting your family and going off into a new place and finding a place to live and getting settled. And so what I found is that when your kids are littler, if you have a family with younger kids, it's a little easier to do things when they're younger and they're not quite established with all their friends and everything. It might be a little easier transition. And then of course, if you're a single person that you maybe have a little more freedom to make those changes and travel and go to those new locations.

(14:28): But I think for me at least, the older my family got, the less willing I was doing to make some of those changes and go off into some of those areas. But I don't know, if the opportunities are there, you got to do what you got to do, you know what I mean? Yeah. And you make those changes and make the best of things. But I would just make sure that you understand before you move the basic things. I don't know, go out there and look at the neighborhoods you're going to move into and try to get a feel for what the school system's like and all those things you do when you're getting ready to move. But I don't know, just be prepared for that change that's going to happen. And some people are more, I don't know, pliable. They're more, I don't know, able to accept changes, absorb changes than others.

(15:25): But yeah, it can be an impactful thing to uproot everything, especially if you have a young family or maybe a little bit older family that's established in an area.

Isaac (15:40): And I also think sometimes you got to think about the impact of your career decision. Sometimes there's a little bit of sacrifice. Maybe you're going to go work for a larger firm or something that really gets experience for yourself and it can help you along in your career. I wanted to ask you too, ever since COVID, there's been a huge push, employees want hybrid or work from home. I'm curious how that was factored into this report too, because are there employees that are working on a project in Los Angeles that don't live in Los Angeles or did they have to live there, I guess? I don't know. Yeah,

Mark (16:28): I'm seeing more of that in the design community. Those civil engineers that may be involved in sales, they may be working for a company, they're involved in sales, or maybe those that are involved more in the construction industry like I am, we're not seeing as much of that remote work that's going on. But a lot of the structural engineering firms that I work with, I mean, guys that traditionally everybody came into the office every day, that was just what was done. Now they're open to guys coming on that are still living in the Seattle area. I know of a local firm here that's hired guys that live in the Seattle area and they work remotely. And from what I hear, it's been okay. They can still be in touch. I think it helps that they're on a similar or they're only an hour difference as far as time zones go.

(17:39): That helps. So the hours worked are similar to our area, but I don't know. I'm seeing more and more of that being accepted form of work schedule, working remotely, but it's mostly in the design community. I don't see it coming down into the construction community as much because that's more of a, you got to have a lot of face-to-face interactions. You got to build relationships. It's a little different.

Isaac (18:09): Yeah, I agree. I mean, in the utility world, which is where I'm a part of, and specifically in the transmission world, most of those jobs can be full remote and a lot of consultants go that way. It opens up the pool of people that you can hire for. So you could be working in Denver, but have a project in Texas or whatever. So there's a lot of that in the utility world when you're on the design side of things. But my career has bounced around in operations kind of scenarios. Yeah, it's more office related because they want you there seeing where issues are. It's really hard to work from home if you need to go look at an issue or in today's climate with wildfire stuff, go fly a drone. Those are things that require you to be out and about.

Mark (19:09): Yeah, and that's true. Yeah, it's a

Isaac (19:10): Mixed bag.

Mark (19:12): But as we talk about uprooting a family and moving somewhere, that might not be required for the position that you're trying to get. So as you're looking at the rankings here and you're considering hiring on with a firm in Los Angeles, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to uproot your family and you have to think about all these things that I'm talking about. You may be able to work remotely.

Isaac (19:40): Awesome. Well, this article highlights job market trends. It also talks about a little bit about quality of life factors that go into that, such as housing, education, healthcare, and recreational activities. Some of that is a huge deal for people. And again, I'm not sure how they quantified that, but definitely a piece of the puzzle. Would you have any advice for people that would have to uproot or consider a change to new locations for civil engineers looking to do that?

Mark (20:20): I've done it, and like I was talking about before, just be prepared for that change. If it were me, I tried to get to know the area I was going to as much as possible before I had to make, I don't know, a firm decision on the move because it's one thing to know the culture of the company that you're going to work for, but the place that you're living, the schools that your kids will be going to, the social aspect of your move is just, I think, just as important as the actual environment that you're going to go work in, the people that you're working in at your office. You got to get to know the community and the area that you're going into a little bit. I would just say that try to get knowledge on as much of those aspects as you can.

(21:14): And there's some things you can't figure out until you're actually living in an area that you just can't get it figured out. I don't know. And if you know people that are already living in the area, they'd be good to talk to and try to figure some of that stuff out. But just understanding what you're jumping into a little bit community-wise and social-wise, because that has just as much of an impact on you as your work environment, the new office that you're jumping into. So that would be my advice is just try to understand all of those dynamics before you make a hard decision to jump in because I've had a lot of mostly interns over the years that sometimes I hear back from them and a lot of them, they go to a new location, love it, things are great. But I do hear occasionally about guys and girls that have gone on to other locations and they're just like, "I don't like this town.

(22:20): They don't like the community that they live in. And if they've done a little bit more research and figured out what it was like a little bit, maybe they wouldn't have made that change." So I don't know, that's my opinion. I would weigh those social things, those community type things in your decision as much as what office you're going to be working with, what people you're going to be working with in this new office, and I'd weigh those about the same. Very good.

Isaac (22:53): Well, Mark, is there any other key takeaways you wanted to hit about this article?

Mark (22:58): Well, I don't know. It's interesting to me again that everything kind of follows the infrastructure. I mean, civil engineering, that's what we do, right? Yep.

(23:10): We design and we help the infrastructure of America get built. And I don't know, it's just, I know we've talked about this in other podcasts about, and there's efforts in this vein, but getting people aware of what civil engineers do, most of this stuff just gets taken for granted. Who cares about water distribution systems? Who cares why this building I'm living in stands up and it doesn't fall down? And it's interesting to see that the rankings apply to, and I bet there's a correlation here, how aware people are, and it kind of translates into probably a lot of the public servants, the elected officials that kind of help direct some of these funds for infrastructure, how aware they are of the needs. It probably correlates with how aware the community is on the importance of infrastructure and what civil engineers actually do. I'm sure there's a correlation there.

(24:23): And so that's what's interesting to me about these rankings is you can follow the importance, excuse me, that these communities are placing on their infrastructure and then bam, they turn into some of the best places that civil engineers can go work

Isaac (24:44): At. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, I would just encourage our listeners to go read the full article. We'll link that in the show notes. Go check out if your city is there, but the ASCE does rank 20 cities that make that list. Go find out if you're on that one, top five, bottom five. If you're on that list, it's usually a good sign, you're in a good spot. I noticed where we're at, Salt Lake City is not on that spot, probably not big enough. I don't know, but maybe one day. Yeah,

Mark (25:17): We're not quite there yet, are

Isaac (25:18): We? It's all good. But thank you for checking this out, Mark. Thanks for jumping on and doing this with me. For those that are interested, definitely check out other episodes that we've got. Like Mark mentioned, got lots of episodes in the past where we've talked about other decision making about your career and lots of other good stuff to help you on your FE or PE preparation as well. And you can check out all the good stuff at civilengineeringacademy.com. So Mark, thanks for joining me, and I'm sure we'll see you again in the future.

Mark (25:52): Okay, we'll see you.

Isaac (25:54): All right. Bye.

Mark (25:55): Bye.