Isaac (00:09): What is up everybody? Isaac here with Civil Engineering Academy. Excited to be with you on another podcast episode. Thanks for liking and subscribing. Thanks for tuning in and sharing this stuff. So appreciate it. Appreciate you doing that. Today I bring a special guest on his name is Shan Ra. He actually is a structural engineer that specializes in communication towers. He's working for a company right now called Crown Castle and doing project management for them and designing some awesome stuff with lattice towers for com sites. And I wanted to bring him on to talk about this niche that he's in because I think it's a, a pretty cool world to be a part of. If you are a structural engineer or looking to get into that world, then this is gonna be one you're gonna wanna listen to. So he has a wealth of knowledge.

Isaac (00:53): He talks about the value of getting that FE and PE as well as looking towards your se if that's in your world, he's looking at that as well. But we detail his journey coming from India to the United States, getting his master's degree and all of that fun stuff. So this is a, a really cool podcast. I think you're gonna enjoy it in this niche market. And as they say, and I mentioned this in the podcast, the riches are in the niches, so definitely you want to check this one out. So without further ado, let me get to this interview with Sudarshan, and I think you'll really gonna enjoy this. It's gonna be coming up right after this. See you in a minute. All right, Sudarshan, we are rocking and rolling. Thanks for joining me today on the Civil Engineering Academy podcast. Appreciate you doing this with me, even though I'm mobile today.

Sudarshan (01:38): Yeah, thanks Isaac. I'm glad to be here and excited as well. UI hope this goes well. Thank you.

Isaac (01:45): Yeah, it should be great. I always love to. Kind of kick these off, just kinda asking about your own background. So what, you know, what, what do you do for a living right now and kind of what was your history of getting there?

Sudarshan (01:58): So currently I'm working as a senior project engineer at Crown Castle. And basically I'm a structural engineer working in telecommunication industry. So we do a lots of structural analysis of towers. Powers are basically structures where all the equipments from the customers goes on there. Towers can be of different type monopole, self support tower and guy tower. And going back to my inspiration to become a structural engineer, I think when I was growing up, I have seen a lot of construction activities around me. I grew up in India, so being in a country where con construction is mostly going on all the time because it's still developing. So I've seen construction of roadways and buildings and residential areas. So that kind of motivated me to pursue civil engineering as my career. I completed my bachelor's in India in civil engineering, and then worked for two years in the city of Mumbai in the state of Mara.

Sudarshan (02:59): So in India I used to mostly work with industrial structures related to thermal power plants and nuclear power plants. It was then when I was working, I felt a need for a master's degree to advance my career and to grow professionally because I was using softwares at that time to create models. And then analyzing the results was not that easy with just a bachelor's degree because finite element analysis and things like that you learn in master's degree. So that's when I decided to do my master's in, come to USA and I completed my master's from University of Cincinnati in Ohio and then started working as a, as an engineer in a company in Dallas. After working there for two years, I moved to Crown Castle. And over here my like work profile varies a lot. I do a lot of structural analysis of towers. I help internal teams with maintenance related question. So basically my aim is to maintain the structural integrity of tower and provide solution to maintain the towers and it's Safety.

Isaac (04:06): That's a unique position. That sounds actually really interesting. I'm involved in transmission design work in the utility world, so there's a little bit of crossover in probably what we see out there. So and I'm curious though, ha have you had the chance to work on transmission related lattice towers as part of this, or has it mainly been for other uses?

Sudarshan (04:33): No, I, I mostly work on lattice tower related telecommunication engineering telecommunication towers, sorry. But however, I now, nowadays I have seen a customer equipment, like anti antennas going on transmission lattice towers as well, wherever possible. But then I think the analysis for those lattice towers are done within the transmission industry and they don't come to us. So yeah, I have not worked directly with transmission towers, but I know some are like the softwares they use like PLS CAD and then yeah, says that a SC code, which they use. So I, I understand like ice loading is a pretty important loading, working with transmission structures.

Isaac (05:22): Wow, that's fascinating. Has there been ever a a favorite project or something that you've worked on that's been memorable in all of these experiences that you've had?

Sudarshan (05:33): Yeah, so right now I, like I said, I work on a lot of stuff in my day to day, so I always feel motivated addressing comments from the jurisdiction. So when we submit our structural analysis report and construction drawing jurisdictions comes up with lot of comments and some jurisdiction more than the other, especially the jurisdiction in California they'll have a lot of comments. So I always find it, find it fascinating and challenging to address those comments to get our documents through permitting. One of the jurisdictional comments, or I was reviewing was for a telecom tower. Again, it was a monopole structure and they had a lot of questions about why are we using exposure, different wind exposure, like why the wind exposure is being used as C and not D because it was close to the coast and why the topographies are not being used on the tower. So then we provide solutions or resolution based on a SC and TIA code, which outlines how the exposure and topographic features should be used. It depends how far the tower is from that topographic feature. If it's too far inland from the feature, then the kct value will come out to be one after all the calculation. So doing all those calculation and providing solutions to our customer and our internal team and getting through permitting, I always find it challenging and fascinating.

Isaac (07:01): So for a lot of our listeners, listeners that maybe aren't structural related, what are kind of some of the code, what are some of the most common codes and standards that you're diving into when you're designing these kinda structures?

Sudarshan (07:15): So the tia, A 2, 2 2 is the most important code for design of antenna supporting structures. And it also provides guidelines for analysis of existing structures. And now tia, A two, two G has revisions like Rev G was first came in 2006, then our next revision rev H was released in 2017. Now the latest revision is Rev. I, so basically that is going into effect now in some jurisdiction who has adopted IBC 2024, otherwise, we are still using Rev H and transitioning to Rev I, other than TIA 2, 2 2, the code that compliments the the TIA A is IBC of course, which is like the very important code for overall building industry. So jurisdiction will adopt IBC, and based on the IBC, we will use the TIA code, which TIA revision to use. Similarly, A SCE seven provides the loading load combination, wind loading, seismic loading, ice loading data, and another code is A ISC. Since these are steel structures, A ISC 360 plays an important role in analyzing and designing still members and connections.

Isaac (08:34): That makes sense. Do you get involved in as well as the tower itself, but the foundations as well, or guide structures or all of these guide or what kind of foundation types are we dealing with?

Sudarshan (08:49): So mostly drill pier Foundation is very predominant in this industry, but you'll often see p and pad unit based foundation. So if, if the structure is guide, like there are typically three types of tower. One is monopole, which is like a sim pipe, like structure from top to bottom. Of course the diameter is a lot higher than a regular pipe. And then there is lattice structure, which can be self-supporting or guide structure with, they are supported by guide wires and then supported at the base. So foundation for guide structures are mostly unit-based foundation or appear pad at the base. And the wires are supported by anchor blocks on three corners or four corners, depending if it's a three-sided tower or four-sided tower. So overall I would say drill pier, foundation, pier and pad and just pad foundations are a more pro predominant in this industry. And depending on the topograph, if it's like there's rock within certain few feets of the tower foundation, then you'll also see rock anchors and sometimes micro piles on these foundations.

Isaac (10:03): Could you also give us maybe high level, like what, what are some of the softwares that you're typically using to help with your lattice tower design and as well as your foundation design?

Sudarshan (10:15): Yeah, there are some softwares which are available in the market, like Tnx Tower ms. Tower ZA 3D which are predominant in the industry now. Tnx Tower, I think is the most used in the US amongst others. Some companies or some vendors will have their own in-house software, but TNX tower is the most used tower. It, it is easy to use like input, loading input in terms of equipment that is coming from the carrier, like the anti antenna house radios and feed line. There are customized inputs made in TNX tower for these, so, which makes it easier to analyze the tower. And then you can always, you can also enter the topographic factors exposure category and wind speed and ice loading in TNX pretty easily. So it's, and it's also compatible with three 3D. So if there are certain part of the tower you want to analyze in 3D, then you can export the model from TNX tower to 3D to do that. So I would say a TN X is the most important software being used in the US now. Along with that, our 3D Mathcad Excel tools are also used to do some a customized calculation.

Isaac (11:29): Okay. So seems like there's quite a bit of knowledge with codes and standards as well as the software side of things. Would you have any tips or advice for an engineer that would like to start exploring this field? How, what's the best way to kinda get into it?

Sudarshan (11:48): I would say the best way is to like networking because if you know people in the industry who are structural engineers or related to the industry, like project managers, then you can get into it. If you're already an engineer and have good knowledge of steel design or even the basics of steel design, if you have studied in college and have are conversion with all types of foundation system like drill peer, peer and pad, and it's pretty easy to get into the industry. You learn a lot during job when you're working because of course you don't do tower design or tower analysis when you're starting. You mostly do building sub bridges, but the basics remains the same. Like you are designing steel members and connections like bolted connections, welded connections here. And similarly you're are doing anchorage of anchor bolts that goes into the foundation supporting the tower. So if you have good knowledge of that, the industry is open for you and just network know people, and if you see any opening in the companies, then go go ahead and apply for it.

Isaac (12:59): How valuable in your career has, has it been to get your fe your pe are, are there requirements now that you're designing these to get your SE license as well? Or is that state dependent?

Sudarshan (13:15): Yeah the SE license is of course state de state dependent because a few states like Illinois, Hawaii, and some jurisdictions in California they require SE stamp to get permitting. But otherwise, most of the other states are PEE sufficient for working in this industry. So I feel it was very important to advance my career, to get my FE especially. And then after that, pe PE was more, more important because then I can stamp essays and I can be like, I can review and approve work done by others. So that was a very important mark in my career. After getting my PE I also went on to pursue professional engineering license in California, which requires an additional exam that is surveying and seismic related exam. So I took that as well. So now I have professional engineering license in almost 10 states.

Sudarshan (14:17): So it has helped me a lot knowing the requirement for different states and how they need their reports. Some, some jurisdiction will have their own wording. They, they require on the summary of the report, like, okay, they follow IBC, or they'll require wording based on local codes, or they'll say we follow take building codes, so we'll have to refer to them. So I, I feel working in multiple states have really helped me to get, get to know about the requirement of different states in terms of submittals. So I feel getting a PE is a very important landmark for anyone working in civil or structural engineering industry

Isaac (14:58): For sure. Was that a challenge for you to get those or did it come easy for you to do that? Would you recommend taking a course? How did you approach that?

Sudarshan (15:10): I would certainly recommend taking a course because taking a course guides you to the process, like what things are there to study, what part of the code you need to study, what codes are involved and like doing in terms of analysis and design. Like you need to know steel design, you need to know concrete design, some portion of wood design, so a course guides and keeps you on track to achieve your goal. So it is very important. Otherwise, there are so many codes like A-S-C-A-I-S-C ato, it's very easy to get lost in those codes and not focus on the outcome or the, and of course, of course always gives a lot of what do you call practice problem to solve. So that helps a lot when you are actually doing solving problems during the exam. That saves a lot of time if you're doing those practice papers.

Sudarshan (16:06): So I feel having, doing a course or pursuing a course during this is very, very helpful. And I would say it's a must because I have taken courses during my PE and even California pe. Mm-Hmm. So my suggestion is to always go for a course. Other reason to go for a course is because when you are working, most of the time you're taking a PE when you're already working in the industry to gain experience. So you have limited amount of time which you can put to get your pe. So again, having a course it guides you through and keeps you on track because it most of the courses are like, okay, this is a webinar you have to watch, or this is a video you have to watch so you can time it. Okay, I'm watching two, two hours of video on Monday. And like, if there are 40 hours of video to watch or maybe even a hundred hours of video to watch, then you can plan accordingly three to four months in advance. Like, okay, I'm doing videos for first two months and practice problems for the last month, and then taking actual practice test for the last two weeks and then going to the exam. So that gives you a, a well guided well guided thought to pass the exam.

Isaac (17:21): So I'm curious, but for you personally have you achieved reaching your SE and do you want se if you don't have it?

Sudarshan (17:31): Yes, I want to get my se I, I don't have it. I have tried the SE vertical ones back in 2018 but I didn't pass it. So since then, a lot of other things happen in life. So I think now things are settling down. I plan to take my essay in next one or two years. So yeah, that's my goal to at least take se part of se start taking part of se now se is computer based and divided into four sections. In the past it was two tests, like vertical and lateral, and now they have divided the vertical morning session, vertical afternoon session. And same thing for lateral morning session and lateral afternoon session. I know they have made not difficult, but more time consuming. Instead of 16 hours, a 22 hour test, there are, I feel 10 questions, which are from book bank question book bank, so they don't count towards your actual results. So that makes it more challenging. But I feel dividing it into four parts word inspire more people. I know it's costly because of can you have to pay your fees four times instead of two? But I feel it'll inspire more engineers because once you part one section, then you can focus on the next section and then go on to pursue essay.

Isaac (18:55): That makes sense. And, you know, working for your employer, ha has your employer encouraged you to get that and do they help with the cost of, say, taking a course or taking it?

Sudarshan (19:07): Yes. over here at Crown Castle, they motivate everyone to become a pe, at least a PE and anyone interested in becoming a se they cover the cost for the courses, for the exams and everything. Of course you have to take your PTO for studying if you want to. But mostly they will cover the day on which you take the exam. So I, I feel overall the structure at Crown Castle is very nice because now most of the engineers working here have a pe so anyone coming in, they have a good backup, not backup, good resources available to guide them to get their pe and also they are, they start working under PE right away. So gaining that four years of experience is much faster because if you're not work, if the company don't have a P and not start, if you don't start working under a P right away, then your experience may not count when you get your recommendation letter. So I feel it's a very nice structure. At Tron, they will cover the cost of the exam and the, and the courses and then getting your recommendation letters is very easy because a lot of engineers already have a pe.

Isaac (20:22): That's awesome. Did you have a pretty good support system at home too? I don't know if you have wife or kids or anything like that at home. Sometimes it's tough to balance all that.

Sudarshan (20:33): Yeah, I mean, when I took my PE I was not married so I had all the time to myself, so that was an advantage. But since then I have taken, I have taken other exams like California PE and then I also completed my PMP license last year, PMP exam last year. So yeah, you need a good support system for sure. And I think at home you need a good support system and you need a good manager at work who supports you to your professional development and motivates you to go through this challenging test and always helps you when you need him. So that has always happened to me at Crown Castle. I've got good, I have always been lucky to be good managers who have motivated my professional career and at home. Yeah, my wife has also encouraged me to go ahead and take this test and supports me with time and everything.

Isaac (21:26): That's great. Hey, I'm, I'm a little curious about the PMP. Why did you end up getting that and do you find it valuable in addition to your pe?

Sudarshan (21:38): Yes, I think I have a PE and I have been working in the engineering or technical field for almost 10 years now. So I thought to have some divers diversification so that I have, when I get an opportunity to become a project manager or handle a big project, I have that license or a certification with me. Although at this time in my career, I mostly deal with small projects here and there, but I always support my manager with our project management stuff if he needs any help. So that helps me with understanding the project management jargon, I would say. Because many times you're in a meeting and they will talk about scope item, what is not in scope and what is initiation, what is planning. Sometimes you may not understand all those jargons. So I feel after taking the PMP and studying for it, I understand the project more nicely and accurately. So I feel PMP is always a plus for a PE if you want to diversify into management area.

Isaac (22:47): Sounds like a really good combination. And like you said, it does make you more well-rounded, so that's awesome. I kinda wanna dive back into your career and maybe as an engineer that's thinking about going this route, but a lot of times, you know, engineers do care about their salaries. Do you feel like going into this world, designing lattice towers, communication towers, do you feel like it's a, a lucrative career? A good choice for engineers to dive into?

Sudarshan (23:20): I would say it depends which company you're working for. I have known people where the salary is not very high, but then there are other companies which pay lucratively. So I feel salary wise, this as long as you're getting the market range for other structural engineers or other structural field with similar experience, then you should go for it. I, I don't feel like it's underpaid when we compare to other civil law structural engineers for sure. And of course we cannot compare with computer science or IT engineers 'cause we will always feel underpaid when we'll compare our salaries with them. Although I feel the liability amount of liability we take as a PE license holder is huge. Like safeguarding the in in structures and also the safety of the people. So overall I feel the industry is paying well. So you should not like, be hesitant to come into the industry because of the payer scale.

Sudarshan (24:28): And nowadays resources are available where you can compare the pay, like if you want to go into buildings or bridges and if you can always compare the pay watch your company's paying for your experience. So I feel pace is moderate, if not like very lucrative. But yeah, it's, it should not be like hesitant or it should not be a blocker to choose this as a career because one advantage, it is a very niche career. Like you are structural engineering but designing towers. So there are not a lot many people like there are in buildings or bridges. So there is some amount of subject matter expertise which will matter when you have like maybe 10 or 15 years of experience.

Isaac (25:14): That's true. Yeah, it's that's a good point. It is very niche. Even in the utility world it's pretty niche as well I think. But sometimes they say the riches are in the niches so maybe it's a good field to get into ,

Sudarshan (25:30): But yeah.

Isaac (25:32): Well that's awesome. Is there anything else you'd like to, to touch on about the industry that you're in that would help motivate other engineers to join?

Sudarshan (25:41): I would say just keep networking and as long as they've taken steel courses in your college or undergrad or grad school, have good knowledge of foundation systems, this industry is open for you. And yeah, I mean I have my LinkedIn profile, you can search me by my name and if you have any questions regarding the industry, feel free to reach out to me. I'll try my best to help you.

Isaac (26:06): Perfect. We're gonna link all those resources in the show notes, so if you have any questions, please get a hold of Ardian and he will help you out. I think that's awesome. So anyway, thank you for joining me today on the podcast and sharing your wisdom with us.

Sudarshan (26:23): Yep. Thank you Isaac. Appreciate it.

Isaac (26:26): Alright, we will talk to you later.