Isaac (00:09): What is up everybody? Isaac here with Civil Engineering Academy. Thanks for joining us today on another podcast episode. Thanks for giving us likes and subscribes and sharing it with your civil engineering friends. We appreciate that. Today I'm gonna have Mark jump on. We have another special episode today as we are discussing kind of a hot button issue that I keep seeing popping up a lot on either LinkedIn or, or either people I know that are struggling to get some of the requirements to get that PE license and specifically the requirement of working underneath a PE that can sign off on your experience. So it's a challenge for some people that find themselves in an industry where if you don't have a PE person that you're working under, or maybe you're an international student that came through the system and you found yourself over here and now you're trying to earn that PE license, there's a lot of different ways to go about it. I also think the PE is just more popular in general, so maybe there's more industries getting into it, but we're gonna dive into that. I'll kick it off by reading a sweet comment on LinkedIn, but I think you're gonna enjoy this episode license, but specifically we wanna hit on getting that experience requirement under pe. Let's talk about, it's coming up right after this.

Isaac (01:22): Alright, mark, we're rocking and rolling. What's going on? Hey, just happy to be on again. This is always fun. Yeah. Happy that you're here. Yeah, let's let's talk kitchen airing from a nice, what was it? A business round table. We'll have to hit that one. Yeah, we'll have to talk about what we discussed there. But I was a part of the Utah Business Magazine round table and it was interesting to see. I don't know the thoughts and feelings of not only the design community in our local market here, but you know, contractors as well, what they see with the market and everything. So, okay. Teaser for a future teaser. Yeah, that's a teaser. Okay. Well I wanna kick this one off. I came across this comment on LinkedIn, so pretty sure it's pretty open out and out there. But this comes from Ali G.

Isaac (02:16): She's a process and controls engineer and she says, I'll be honest, the PE professional engineer system feels rigged. I'm not saying it is, but I'm gonna explain my situation. I went to an ABET accredited school, you might have heard, called Rose Holman Institute of Technology. I took the FE exam in 2010 in Indiana and I passed it. I studied chemical engineering for three and a half years, and I started learning controls engineering. I started studying for the PE exam in control system engineering and register. Tried to register for the exam in the state of Washington in 20, 20, 10 years after I passed the exam in Indiana. That never expires. I paid for the exam and then I was told I can't take the test without applying first for the EIT program of Washington, which required that I have to work under a PE for four years. Well, I didn't have that, so I let go of trying.

Isaac (03:17): Since I can't control the state laws, I was not able to ever get my PE license despite even paying for the exam. Since I don't have any PEs to complete my paperwork, I then went out on my own. So now I'm really not in a position to ever get a PE license, but I will say I tried. Meanwhile, I see PE mills pump out PEs that literally have four years of total engineering experience. So if you have a PE license, what is your advice for someone like me? Should I give up? That's where I'm at. I can try all I want, but it's fruitless. Do you think the system is fair? Does it make sense to not allow people to even take the PE exam without other PEs saying It's okay, I'm ready to change the name of my company to remove the word engineering, even though that's all I've been doing for 15 years.

Isaac (04:12): So there's some big questions there, but probably should start out by just kinda explaining as of 2025 what those requirements are. But what's your thoughts on her comment?

Mark (04:25): Well, I I, I think I can feel for her frustration there. It sounds like she's up against some specific rules in the state of Washington that are, that are blocking her. I know and I think most states have moved away from this, but they used to be able to, PEs used to be able to qualify or, or meet all of the criteria for licensure in Utah back in the old days they could take the, the exam, they didn't have to actually have an ABE accredited degree before they, they took the test, they could actually sign up for the test, take the test, and as long as they passed the test, they they were good to go.

Mark (05:16): And the board recognized that that that that test score and, and they got their pe I know that that's since changed and I would guess that most states follow that. And so what I see here though is I don't know. It's, it's this experience requirement. And I think there's ways to get around that as well if if state licensing boards will, will do some things a little bit differently. But.

Isaac (05:48): Yeah. Well, I want to go over what is actually required as of February of 2025. So in order for you to get your PE license, you have to graduate from an ABET accredited engineering program. You have to pass the FE exam, the fundamentals of engineering. You have to gain at least four years of qualifying engineering experience. And that's where that role of working under A EPE comes into play that can sign off on your experience. And then lastly, you have to pass the principles and practice of, of the PE exam. So those requirements, you know, they can vary from state to state and it sounds like she's just, maybe she's in a state that doesn't lean towards her experience level.

Mark (06:38): Yeah.

Isaac (06:38): But I do think it's something she could sit down with the state and hopefully figure it out. It sounds,

Mark (06:43): Yeah, I think if she was really maybe a little more ambitious, it sounds like she's, you know, frustrated here, but if she was a, a little more diligent about pressing her local licensing board. I know like in, in my case I got to actually so in the, in the construction industry that I work in they started issuing provisions, certain design provisions as a construction engineer that required the stamp of a, of a structural engineer. And so I actually got to go through kind of a grandfathering process in the state of Utah because I was practicing within the structural engineering discipline. And the state of Utah had just passed the provision that said that any practicing engineer that was designing high occupancy type buildings had to have their SE license to be able to design those things. And that kind of bled down into some of the things that I was doing in my construction engineering career specifically, like reshore and back shoring design. All of a sudden that became a requirement that a structural engineer stamped those designs. And, and that was like right in my wheelhouse. That was something I'd been doing for a lot of years. And I thought, oh man, I'm gonna have to go in and get to do the 16 hour test and, and study all of that.

Mark (08:30): But I, I got in right when the state of Utah was going through that transition period and they were allowing PEs that were practicing structural engineering to kind of get grandfathered in. But you had to appear before the review board, the licensing board and talk about what you did. Right? And then they kind of made the decision whether you, your past experience was equivalent enough that you didn't have to go back and do the the 16 hour test. And so that's, that's kind of how I went through the process and got, got grandfathered in and got my SE license and I could continue to practice and stamped drawings and designs that I was doing within you know, my construction engineering realm of of influence. And so the reason I I say that is because I would think something similar could, could be done here for, for this person where they just, they schedule some time before their licensing board.

Mark (09:36): I don't know what Washington's licensing board is like, or even if they're open to those kind of things. But I would think that state licensing boards should, you know, offer that as an option for people that are in this situation that, you know, apparently 15 years is obviously a lot of experience. And if this person's been doing qualifying engineering type projects as a controls engineer, why that ought, that ought to qualify. 'cause There are industries that just, they don't have as many PEs or even ESS as, as the civil engineering community has, right? And so these people just don't have those kind of opportunities sometimes. And so there, I, my opinion is there needs to be a provision for that, but it needs to come from the state licensing boards. They're kind of the gatekeepers, right?

Mark (10:40): They're the ones that are back their hands on the switch. And so I think there should be an option for people like this where they can appear before the board, they present their credentials, their experience, and then the board can make, make a decision and maybe make an exception. But that's my opinion.

Isaac (10:59): Well, I do know it's on the radar of the N-C-E-E-S. I just happen to be diving into one of their issues of their newsletter called licensure. And the then president, I guess he's still president, I don't know Andrew Sowell, PLS, he mentioned some things that they need to work on that continually come up. So it says here he's, he wrote, as a result of our pursuit of new pathways, questions have arisen within our discussions. Are alternative educational pathways sufficient to achieve competency? Can qualifying experience be demonstrated without the direct oversight of PE supervisors and mentors?

Isaac (11:48): And then can a candidate achieve competency through non-traditional experience pathways? So I, I think the N-C-E-E-S is dealing with this issue. I think it's coming up if they're talking about it a lot. I also see many international students that, you know, you can pick and choose where you're at. Like some people are in an industry where you don't have PEs that you're working under maybe, or maybe you're an international student that you don't meet the education requirement. 'cause It says right there, you have to go to an a, a accredited school. And so you have to prove that the school you went to is up to snuff with requirements for teaching engineering. But so there's just a lot of ways to kind of poke holes on the requirements to become a professional engineer.

Mark (12:39): Yeah.

Isaac (12:40): But at least they're talking about it, so,

Mark (12:43): Well yeah. And that's, and that's good. But I, I, yeah, I still think that you know, my opinion is there can be alternative educational pathways. I mean, I've, I've talked about this before. I think the, the winning combination is the education and the practical experience. You have to have both of those meshed together to become a competent engineer. And so that's the intent of all the requirements, right? That are, that currently exist with the education and then working under a, a PE for four years as an engineering training, right? And EIT that's the intent behind those requirements is that you are gaining that practical experience and you have a, a supervisor that can verify that, right? So if you take that, 'cause if you take that away and maybe somebody hasn't followed that traditional pathway, I, I just think if they can prove that they have gained that, that practical side of things and they're, they're competent I think it's up to the licensing board to, to, they have to demonstrate that to the licensing board.

Mark (14:04): And I would think it would be their decision as to whether that individual could be, could qualify or maybe that that requirement could be waived a little bit because I, I do think there can be alternative pathways. For sure.

Isaac (14:22): So the president in that newsletter, he hit three E's, which we've already talked about, but he talks about the history of education. He also goes over the examination and then, and kind of the history of it. And he also hits on the experience requirement and he calls those the, the three E's. And it sounds like to you the most crucial for ensuring competency is it sounds like the experience and education requirement. Is that accurate?

Mark (14:58): Well, I, I, it's a, it's, it's the blending of the two. It's nice to have the theory and the background and have gone through all of your engineering courses, but I'm telling you, until you've got your, your feet on the ground and you've actually produced designs that are actually getting implemented and used right in real world scenarios, it just, you, you, things just don't, I don't know, they just don't stick, they just don't lead to additional competency in your, in your, in your field.

Mark (15:37): And so, ,

Isaac (15:39): Let me ask you another question.

Mark (15:41): I'm just saying it's a combination of the two.

Isaac (15:44): Have you ever had instances of of an engineer, maybe in your opinion, who are not competent, but are licensed?

Mark (15:57): I've had PhD level individuals that are put on projects where, I don't know, I wouldn't go all the way to say they're incompetent, but they lack the experience to make clear judgment calls, clear engineering judgment type calls for what's actually happening in the field. You know, an engineer can create, you know, a structural engineer can create the most beautiful structural model of a, of a building, for example, that you've ever seen. But it may be designed and the numbers all work out, right? All the gravity systems and the lateral systems, everything works great. But if you can't build it because it's in constructable, then what good is it? You know what I mean? It's like, it's, it's worthless. And so that's, that's why I say that it, the, those two things have to be meshed together. 'cause You can be very sound you know, with, with, with all of the, the technology, all of the theory all of that you can, and all of the science right behind all the engineering that we do, you can be technically like very competent with all that stuff.

Mark (17:22): But I'm telling you, until you blend that with real world experience real world application of your design I just, I just don't think you're at the, you're a competent engineer not as competent as you should be.

Isaac (17:41): Makes sense. So I mean, in Allie G's comments, she asked three questions. Should she give up? Is the system fair? And, and I think for her, the easiest thing may be if she's starting her own company, it may be just easiest to remove engineer from the company name. Because that really is what states kind of monitor and get upset at, is if you're calling yourself an engineer, the expectation is that you have your PE license, even though she has tons of experience. Right. And may just be easier to avoid it all. But maybe another answer is to get a license in another state that maybe has more favorable rules,

Mark (18:29): That's a good option too. And then she could apply for comedy or reciprocity, you know? Yep. In, in, in, in Washington. It sounds like that's the state that she's in. And see if she couldn't go that route. And that would be, you know, an alternative short of maybe trying to schedule some time with her licensing board, you know, and actually talking about the, the issue. But yeah.

Isaac (18:53): Yeah. So if anyone is out there that's struggling with this very issue, I think those are some good options that you should probably looking into. At the end of the day, I think what states are trying to do is, you know, if you have engineer in the title anywhere, they wanna make sure that you meet all the requirements for that. And that is, you know, at the end of the day, keeping the public safe. So there's reasons for that.

Mark (19:20): Yeah. And so you can see the intent behind the requirements, you know, and I think they're good. I think they're good. Those, they, those should be the requirements. But there's always exceptions. There's always those people, like, like this person here that kind of slips through the cracks, that is probably a very competent engineer. It's just they haven't been able to jump through all of the qualifying hoops that are, that are required, but they're, again, there, there ought to be some kind of a, I don't know, contingency, I wouldn't wanna call it a loophole, but there ought to be a provision that allows for people like this to, to at least get considered, right. At least get their day in court sometime before the board to, to explain what's got going on. And then they're the ones with their, their hands on the switch and let them make the decision.

Isaac (20:19): But, so maybe we could wrap up on this, but what advice would you give to someone they're just coming outta school and they know that one day they want their PE license. So, you know, what should they be looking for?

Mark (20:36): Well, as I've seen when I first started, right, that was one of the goals that I had. I knew I had that goal. And so when I went to work for the, the first company that I went to work for, that was one of the things I asked about, like, am I gonna be working under some, some licensed professionals when I start my work? And my, my office that I started working in it. I worked for a nationally national based company. I mean, they had offices everywhere, but my office here locally, there wasn't any PEs in the office when I started.

Mark (21:15): There was an individual that got his PE after I'd worked there for about a year. But I actually contacted the PEs and other offices within my organization and let 'em know as well what, what my goals were, right? And so, hey, I need you to, you know, be my supervising PE so that I can gain my experience. And so I would actually send my work to a couple of individuals in Kansas City. One was in Kansas City, one was in Phoenix, Arizona. And another one was in was in Pittsburgh . And so they were within my organization, they weren't in my office, but I was making them familiar with my work so that when I asked them to endorse me on my application for my PE licensure, they didn't have any issues with doing that. So I would, my advice would be if, if you're going to work for an organization and that's your goal is to get licensed, you identify the individuals within your organization, that can be your, your mentors, right?

Mark (22:25): Your, your, your guys that are gonna, because they could leave too. Well, that's true. Yeah. They could leave too . Yeah. But you have to identify those individuals and kind of, you know, definitely reach out to 'em and go, Hey, this is my goal. I need you to kind of keep an eye on, on my work so that you can endorse me when I make my application for my, my license. And so that's, that's what you gotta do. And so if you're an individual though, that is working, maybe for a company that doesn't have a lot of licensed professionals within the company, you're gonna have to, through industry organizations and the like, you're gonna have to identify other individuals outside of your organization that can keep an eye on your work. And that can be done as well. You know, you have to like they should be individuals that are working within your same industry and they have to be, get familiar with your work, but maybe you're, you're sending them your work periodically so they can review it and they get familiar with what you're doing.

Isaac (23:36): Maybe it's another consultant or some other com you know, other company that you're, is in your world that.

Mark (23:43): Yeah, that can work as well. And that's a little less convenient than if they're within your own organization, but it can be done. So.

Isaac (23:53): I was thinking about my own life. I had to reach out to people that worked in Oregon area, that we were in the same department, but they worked in that state and we had a couple in Utah. So I was able to get all the people I needed rounded up to, to get it s stamped. And, but that was, that was nice and fortunate. But yeah, some people struggle with getting that experience, but and getting people to sign off it, but it is one of the deals, so.

Mark (24:22): Yeah.

Isaac (24:23): Yeah. Anyway, there's ways to do it. I think we've hit on kind of all of our thoughts on how you could do it out, maybe thinking outside the box a little bit hopefully that's helpful for people that are struggling. So, any, any other last thoughts there, mark?

Mark (24:39): Um just you, you've got to, I guess as soon as you're done with your, your, your engineering curriculum at whatever university you've graduated from, you gotta be planning ahead for this is, is the key, right? You gotta be thinking, okay, I'm on. Especially if you've just passed your, your FE and you're, you're, you're an engineer in training, you gotta be thinking ahead, okay, I, I want my PE license. Who are my mentors? You know, who are those individuals that I need to be working under that need to get familiar with my work? Identify who those are and just, you know, you gotta be thinking of it early. I, I think case.

Isaac (25:22): And keep track of the work you're doing and keep track of the work you're doing.

Mark (25:27): Yep.

Isaac (25:28): All the projects you touch.

Mark (25:30): That's right,

Isaac (25:31): Right now when you did it, all that jazz.

Mark (25:34): That's right. So just be thinking of everything early and you should be able to get people lined up, be be involved in, in your industry, you know, local industry organizations. 'cause You'll be able to identify individuals that may be outside of your organization that can help you. And there's, there's ways to do it. So you just gotta plan ahead.

Isaac (25:56): Yep. Cool. Alright man. Thanks for jumping on. Thanks for going over that newsletter, the comments on LinkedIn and talking about experience and the requirements for getting your pe. This is kind of fun. Maybe I'll find another hot button issue on LinkedIn and kind of dive into it so.

Mark (26:13): We can have a little debate. .

Isaac (26:15): Sounds good. Okay. All right man. See ya.

Mark (26:18): Thanks.