Isaac Oakeson: All right. What is up, everybody? Isaac here with Civil Engineering Academy. Excited to be with you on another fun podcast episode. Thanks for checking us out. If you've been listening to us for a while, we would appreciate any comments or likes that you can give, whether you find us on YouTube or any of the podcast catchers. I'm wearing these big old earphones today because, well, it's fun to podcast with. You can hear better. So if you're watching me on YouTube, you're gonna check those out. But we're excited.

Isaac Oakeson: I bring my brother Mark on. We're gonna talk about supply chain management and its importance in the civil engineering world. It's gonna be a good episode as we talk about supply chain. It seems like that's affecting everyone in every industry. So we specifically just wanted to hammer home and talk about it with engineers and how it's affecting each of our workplaces.

Isaac Oakeson: But before we do that, make sure you check out civilengineeringacademy.com. If you do indeed need help and resources with your FE or PE exam, we are definitely there to help you on your journey to pass that. So go check us out at civilengineeringacademy.com. But let's bring Mark on and let's start talking about supply chain management. It's coming up.

Isaac Oakeson: Mark. What's going on?

Mark Oakeson: Hey, just glad to be with you again. It's always a good time. You always show me a good time on these podcasts, Isaac. It's always fun.

Isaac Oakeson: I know, man. This is good. You're my regular.

Mark Oakeson: I know. I love it.

Isaac Oakeson: Come and have a conversation about what's going on in the world a little bit. We know supply chain is a big deal these days, and I wanted to pick your brain a little bit and talk about how it's affecting not only the industry you're in, but I can talk about how it's affecting my industry. And maybe as a whole, how things are shaking out.

Isaac Oakeson: I guess, as we get started, there is an importance to supply chain management in engineering. And what are your thoughts, just overall, about supply chain where it's at right now and how it's affecting, I guess, your world?

Mark Oakeson: Well, what's going on right now is it's rough, because lead times for procuring your materials that you need for your projects are a lot longer than they used to be. So not only is the actual availability of different construction materials a problem, but some of those issues are stemming from actual raw material procurement. But then once a manufacturer or a producer of a certain type of, you know, structural component, whatever it might be, once he gets raw materials, then there's a longer lead time because of possibly labor issues with the manufacturer or whatever might be happening.

Mark Oakeson: There's longer lead times to actually produce the structural components that need the raw material. And so there's like this domino effect happening right now. And so, the raw material producer is affecting the manufacturer, and then that manufacturer is affecting the supplier, if there's another middleman in there, and then that's affecting actual delivery times to projects so that some of these structural components can be put together and these projects can be built.

Mark Oakeson: So yeah, it's affecting things all the way down the line. And so engineers are -- One of the roles that they have is specifiers, right? They're designing projects. In my case, primarily structures, they're designing these structures and the type of material that they're using, the type of structural material that they're using in their design, can be greatly affected by these supply chain issues that are going on right now.

Mark Oakeson: And so engineers, design engineers, have to kind of have their ear to the ground. They gotta understand what's going on in the market because their design may be affected by, you know, lack of availability of the structural materials that they've actually designed, which won't go to serve their clients very well because they won't be able to get their structure built in the time frame that they need it. You know, I've seen recently, a lot of structural materials getting changed because of those issues. So maybe a certain type of office building or multi-family residential building that would typically go with, I don't know, a wood frame, maybe is going to structural concrete because that's more available, more readily available. And rebar and concrete can be procured, but dimensional lumber is really tough.

Mark Oakeson: Or sometimes, you know, they find out that the dimensional lumber is really expensive, and there's been lots of ups and downs and spikes in the market the last few years in dimensional lumber. And they'll switch from that to structural concrete or structural steel, you know? Types of buildings, office buildings and structures that are normally designed with structural steel have changed to structural concrete again, for an example, just because of these procurement issues that I'm talking about.

Mark Oakeson: So yeah, it's a big deal. And so it's important for engineers to understand what's going on so that they can best serve their clients.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. I've seen the same thing in the industry I'm in, in the utility world, where lead times are getting crazy and we've had to switch out material. I'm in the transmission industry in the utility world, and we've had to switch from, you know, using like polymer insulators to using glass insulators because the lead times are way less on those. And things like that where usually polymers had kind of been the go-to when you're designing this stuff.

Isaac Oakeson: Let's back up a little bit and talk about maybe what is causing this. I know it's been in the news quite a bit, but I think it kind of stems from, initially, COVID. I know, particularly in China, they've had kind of a zero policy where, if COVID hits them, they shut everything down and everyone gets locked up. And it's led to supply chain issues, docks being full of freight ready to go out and just not being able to get it all out. We have Russia and Ukraine going on, and I know particularly in my own shoes, that Ukraine produces a lot of insulators and things in the utility world. And that has drastically changed lead times as well in some cases as well. So maybe as a whole, what are your thoughts on how we've gotten here?

Mark Oakeson: Well, I think it's just -- It's a nasty combination of a lot of things. Of course, COVID, I think, was first in the line of events, world events, that happened that affected supply chain. So as different areas -- You know, there was a lot of geopolitical pressures for maybe local municipalities to shut down and not have employees come to work. And I know there was a lot of, you know, remote people trying to get to work. You're using Zoom meetings and trying to use technology for meeting, getting work done, and collaborating that way. But for manufacturing processes and those kind of things, you can't do those things remotely. You can't do those from your home office. And so, when different municipalities would issue mandatory lockdowns, then their products were not getting produced. And so the supply chain was getting affected by that.

Mark Oakeson: So I think that was the thing that got things started in the supply chain problems. And then once we moved to some of these other world issues that were happening, like you mentioned, Isaac, Ukraine, some of the raw materials that those guys normally supply the world markets obviously started disappearing, you know? A nation that's in war time, you know, the war tends to become the dominant priority, right? For the nation, obviously. And with everything going on, they can't produce the normal raw materials that they bring to market.

Mark Oakeson: One of the things that, you know, in my line of business, is Ukraine -- You talk about insulators and some of the things that Ukraine used to supply readily to the world markets. I'm being impacted by the pig iron, which is some of the raw materials that are used to make structural steel. And not only the structural shapes, but you know, a lot of the rebar that I use in my industry. And so that's, that's been affected by Ukraine.

Mark Oakeson: So I think COVID was the first thing that kind of got everything gummed up. And then the world events that developed after that just made it worse, you know? So I think those two things kind of led to where we're at.

Isaac Oakeson: I totally agree. So I'm thinking specifically for engineers now, I think there's some best practices that engineers can look at and lean into as you're looking at projects, looking ahead at things, understanding, you know, at the very beginning that you need to be planning, evaluating where you're getting this stuff, where you're getting your product or material, and how those things are affecting your timelines and projects as a whole. There's other aspects of that, including sourcing and also making this stuff, and then actually finally delivering on all of this.

Isaac Oakeson: And so supply chain, and in terms of engineering, you have to look ahead and realize all of those affect your projects and those can change frequently and often. I know in my industry, we usually get an update frequently about lead times on material products, hardware, insulators, steel poles, and kind of get a general feel of where lead times are. And I've been really surprised what has really shot through the roof where something was typically readily available is now not. And sometimes those lead times for simple items are getting to be almost just as long as some of the longest lead time items that we have, which is typically steel poles in the utility world that take a while.

Isaac Oakeson: Are there some best practices you might recommend or that you see in the world of civil engineering with supply chain management?

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. Well, I would say as a design engineer, maybe you've had the luxury in the past to kind of be not so in touch with some of these supply chain issues. And you haven't had to be, because in good times, when product is flowing and the markets are operating like they're supposed to, then we have good access to the products we need. We can't assume that anymore. And so, I would say that, as an engineer that's designing projects, you need to get in touch with those individuals within your industry, which are usually contractors and actual suppliers of product that you normally use in your design. You need to be in touch with those guys. Maybe you need to get a little more familiar with them and the things that they're up against, so that you can understand how your materials that you're specifying either are or they aren't gonna be available. And if that timing is gonna work or not.

Mark Oakeson: If you don't have a feel for that, then you could be designing with the material that isn't available. And, you know, if the contractor and those that are actually executing the work and building the project for your client can't get the material, then your design becomes pretty worthless at that point. You haven't delivered any value to your customer. And so, I would say it's important to get in touch with those folks that got their boots on the ground and understand what the issues are with the supply chain, and get a feel for what direction to take in your design before you take it, right?

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. And I totally agree with you. If you're a design engineer, these are sometimes things you never have even thought about, because things have just run smoothly. You know, you're cranking out a design, you're issuing out an IFC package of some sort, and maybe material's been the last thing on your mind because you've been engineering stuff. And now, with current events, it's almost -- You know, it's thrown a wrench in that. So you're tweaking your design, you're looking at alternatives for material.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. I've had engineers that -- And sometimes it pushes them into uncomfortable realms. So, an engineer that's used to working with wood, for example, most of his structures, he designs in wood and he's used to the trusses and the dimensional lumber being just readily available. All of a sudden he's like, "Yikes. I can't get this stuff anymore. I gotta start thinking about cold-form metal studs." Or you know, a different type of system. And it's forcing them into maybe, you know, some other realms that -- You know, there can be a benefit there. It can, I guess, enhances his resume and the systems and the things that he knows how to design. But yeah, he's gotta make sure that what he is designing is available.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. And I'm reading that, even with these supply chain issues, there's been an opportunity to learn or improve things with supply chain that, maybe when things do settle out, there are some improvements on how the whole thing works and is running. Some of those things may be shifting to maybe an eCommerce model, maybe digitizing your supply chain and how that's all operating that way, getting everything digital. Even globalization and offshoring. New different business models. And even remote and distributed teams to help you with this stuff.

Isaac Oakeson: I'm not sure if you've experienced any of that, but it sounds like with the supply chain issues and just realizing that you may be changing your designs a little bit, I don't know if there's any best practices that have come of supply chain issues, or even these opportunities maybe post-COVID, if that's what we're calling it, that have kind of shaken out because of noticing the issue and trying to improve upon it. Have you seen anything along those lines?

Mark Oakeson: In my businesses, I've seen a little more pressure to kind of link. So, most of the designs that I'm trying to get built are produced with some kind of BIM modeling. And what this supply chain issue has done is that they can, I guess, crunch down or reduce some of the time frames for delivery. It's kind of forced the design engineer to communicate a little more, I think, timely with some of the fabricators. So if a, you know, structural engineer is used to producing a BIM model, and then he floats that out for bidding purposes, and a contractor bids that, usually there's a little more time. There isn't a lot of pressure between when his design is done and when the job actually gets supplied the material and they start building. That time frame between when his design is done and when things try to go to fabrication has been reduced.

Mark Oakeson: And so I think there's been a little more of a movement towards closer collaboration, you know? Filling that gap? It's what I've seen. There's always been a push, and it's been occurring for a lot of years now, where an actual BIM model that's produced by the Engineer of Record can actually serve as almost the detailing, the end detailing, that's needed, or as much of the detailing that's needed for actual fabrication of whatever structural system is being implemented. As much of that as possible being incorporated into the BIM model. And so I'm seeing a little more detail being required of the structural engineer so that that communication, that gap, is closed up a little bit, right? So that it doesn't add to the lead time needed for procuring these materials. Doesn't add to the fabrication time.

Isaac Oakeson: Interesting. Yeah. Well, I'm reading that parts of China are still affected by COVID, and that they are still experiencing lockdowns in that area up until June of 2022. So, I'm reading that it give us a chance to get caught up on the backlog of stuff that's coming, but eventually they'll probably be another tidal wave of stuff.

Mark Oakeson: So we're gonna be able to empty the ports, but once they're empty, there won't be another supply coming for a little while, huh?

Isaac Oakeson: Well, cool! This has been a fun conversation. I think this is affecting all of engineering, no matter what discipline you find yourself in and what you're working in. It's been fun to talk a little bit about supply chain and understanding it a little bit and how it affects us as engineers. Anything else you would like to talk about about supply chain, Mark, in the civil engineering world?

Mark Oakeson: No, I would just caution everybody. Make sure they get into it, understand how it's impacting their project that they're currently designing. Because you may be going down a road that, at the end of the process, if you're not delivering, you know, that value to your customer with a good design, you may be providing him something with materials that you can't even get, you know? Or you can't supply in time. And so it won't do them any good. So makes sense to do your homework up front and make sure you understand these supply chain issues that might be going on in your market.

Isaac Oakeson: Yep. Cool, man. Well, thanks for jumping on and doing this with me. It's always fun to have you jump on and share your thoughts. I think this one's definitely relevant for where we're at in the world right now. So thanks for doing this.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. You bet.

Isaac Oakeson: Okay. See you next time.

Mark Oakeson: Okay. See you.