Isaac Oakeson: All right. What is going on, everybody? Isaac here with Civil Engineering Academy. Jumping on real quick and thankful that you're here on another podcast episode for Civil Engineering Academy. These are always fun to do as we talk about topics related to the FE and the PE, or anything that really help you on your journey to become a professional engineer. So give us a like. Give us a subscribe. And if you haven't subscribed to us on any of the pod catchers, please do so. And if you want to, go ahead and share it with a friend, because sharing is caring, right? So, we love it.

Isaac Oakeson: Anyway, today I'm bringing Mark back on. We're gonna talk about a fun topic that I think will be of interest to you. And that is the secret to passing your exams. Doesn't matter if it's your FE, your PE, or any other exam, we really have the secrets to talk about. So, without further ado, let's bring on Mark and let's talk about it.

Mark Oakeson: Hey, Isaac. It's good to be here again, as always.

Isaac Oakeson: Excellent.

Mark Oakeson: Let's see if we can figure some things out here by talking.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. So, obviously, these exams are big deals. You know, you've taken them, I've taken them. We've had a brother that's taken the exams. And so, we've got some tips for people. But, you know, the first thing I wanted to talk about is really the big secret to passing these exams. And there's really no way around it. And the big secret to passing these exams is straight up to do the work. There's really no way around that.

Isaac Oakeson: So if you wanna become a professional engineer, you gotta put in the work to do it. It's gonna take sacrifice. And it's a really simple answer, but it's not an easy answer. And it's not going to be easy. So, definitely the work has to be put in. What's your thoughts on -- I mean, when you were preparing, how many hours do you think you prepared? Or months do you think you put in for the, I guess, the PE.

Mark Oakeson: The PE, I blocked out about four months before I was gonna take that test. I figured out a study schedule where I would -- My best time was working after hours after work. I actually would go to the library because back then my kids were younger and I knew if I went home I'd have, you know, some disruptions. So you know, I made sure that my family understood this is my goal.

Mark Oakeson: "I'm gonna study for the PE. I'm gonna tackle this thing. And I got the study schedule and I'm gonna stick to it." And I was pretty diligent about that. Tried to get in, you know, a couple hours every night after work. And I did that pretty much every workday for about four months before I actually took the PE.

Mark Oakeson: And so was it convenient? Was it necessarily all that much fun? Not necessarily. You know, there is other stuff I could have a lot more fun doing, you know? Being home with my family and those kind of things. But it's just like everything else. It's like you say, a lot of people, they want the quick and easy route with a lot of things in our life. But, you know, if you wanna do things the right way, if you wanna earn that credential, you gotta put in the work, you know?

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah.

Mark Oakeson: Anything worth having in life, that's actually the answer. You gotta put in the hard work and the dedication to learn and master the material.

Isaac Oakeson: So, I wanna hit a couple things on that because we can dive into that a little bit. But it's easy to feel overwhelmed when you're starting this journey. When you hear about the volume of material that people are gathering, how much it's gonna cost you. You start looking at reference manuals, you gotta dive into the handbooks, you gotta get practice problems, and you may need to dive into a course if you want to, and we definitely recommend those. So go check them our at civilengineeringacademy.com. We got the good stuff there.

Isaac Oakeson: But, you know, it's easy to get stuck. And people get beat up by this exam. So, you know, if you're a repeat taker, your mindset is probably different than going into this the first time taking the exam. I imagine when you're taking it for the first time, and I can speak to this because I'm a repeat taker, but the first time you go through it, you're gonna put forth lot effort.

Isaac Oakeson: You might not know what that level of effort should be because you're kind of unfamiliar with the exam and how they're gonna test you, what it looks like, the questions that they throw at you. But, your best foot forward, if you go look at the statistics, the best chance of you passing is the first time. And then, if you go to the NCEES website, you'll see those pass rates really fall off a cliff as a repeat taker. And there's a number of factors for that.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. Which is kind of counterintuitive if you think about it. I mean, you think somebody that have a little more experience, know what to expect, know maybe to what level they need to apply themselves. You know, you think they'd be more successful, but that's not necessarily the case, is it?

Isaac Oakeson: No, it's not. And I actually -- If you wanna go back on a previous episode, I actually interviewed the director of the NCEES at the time. He switched, but go check out the past podcast episode. And I interviewed the existing past director and asked that very question. And his simple answer is that, you know, like with any exam, you're getting the best students passing the first time, and those that aren't passing are not the best students. And so, that was his simple answer to the repeat taker drop off, I guess.

Isaac Oakeson: You know, I think, and as a repeat taker, I do think many people, and I was put in this boat a little bit, I did not feel like I was extremely prepared the first time I took it. I did not put in the hard work and the effort. I took a very quick review course, and a lot of times I think people go in taking that first time just to experience the exam. You know, "I'm gonna give it a shot. I'm gonna put in maybe a halfhearted effort, let's see how difficult the thing is." And then when they realize, you know, "Wow?!" and they get slapped in the face like I did, then you know that you gotta put your best foot forward and really get serious with this thing.

Isaac Oakeson: So, I guess, take me through maybe some of the mental challenges that someone might have as a repeat taker, and what are the hurdles they need to get over to past this that you've seen?

Mark Oakeson: I would think one of the biggest hurdles for a repeat taker is just that discouragement after you've taken it the first time. And maybe you were one of those guys, like, you know, you were kind of doing it halfheartedly, you know? Just one foot in, one foot out. You're straddling the fence.

Isaac Oakeson: Whatever metaphor you use.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. Whatever metaphor you wanna use. Yeah. And so you know that you really didn't apply yourself appropriately. And so, maybe you don't feel that bad about yourself because you're like, "Yeah, I was just goofing around and I really didn't take myself seriously." But maybe you did take yourself seriously. Maybe you did put in a lot of hours and studied really hard and it still didn't happen for you. There can be a lot of discouragement that can follow that. So maybe one of the -- I would think one of the big hurdles is just getting over that discouragement.

Mark Oakeson: Just because you didn't pass it the first time, it doesn't make you a crappy engineer. It doesn't mean you can't be competent at your craft, right? At your expertise. It just means you need to figure out maybe where you went wrong. Maybe there was some -- You know, you took the test the first time and you do have a feel for maybe where you could have spent more time, and you understand those areas of study that maybe you don't have it down quite as well, you know? Maybe those courses that you maybe struggled with a little bit more than others during your curriculum at your university that you went to. And so, you know, maybe on this next time.

Mark Oakeson: Overcoming that discouragement and then ailing down where you think you fell short, and putting more effort in those areas rather than maybe spending time in those areas that you feel like you got down pat. But I don't know, Isaac. I would think that discouragement, getting over that initial disappointment, it's kind of a punch in the gut, you know?

Isaac Oakeson: It is. There's a few things to that I can think of. One is that, you know you spend a ton of money doing this. Like taking these exams, whether it's FE or PE, is not cheap. And I can't tell you how many emails I get after people take the exam and they have failed it, just wanting, you know, not to commiserate, but really just to, like, get a "pick me up" and tell them that they can't do this.

Isaac Oakeson: And I get a lot of emails about that. And some people fall into that category where they did put their best foot forward. They felt like they did well and they didn't pass. And they're wondering, "Where did I go wrong? What is this organization doing to me? They're making me crazy." And then they start hating that process, that exam process, the NCEES, you know, "they're just trying to mess with me."

Isaac Oakeson: And I get that, you know? As a repeat taker, it bothers you a little bit that you know the next time you're gonna take the exam, it's not gonna be the same exam. You're gonna have new problems. "What do I need to study? Because I felt like I did well the last time. But you know, it's the same answer, right? You gotta do the work. You gotta get new problems. Get back on a schedule. And eventually you'll get there.

Isaac Oakeson: And we've had people in our courses that have taken the exam a few times and they found us and finally got over the hump of passing. And then they share that story

Mark Oakeson: And wasn't a lot of that because, with the coursework, they're able to get more organized? They have an outlined curriculum and they can kind of pace themselves. And it's just a little more organized effort that lends itself better to them, grasping the material and being able to learn it better.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. It puts people in the right mindset. Things are organized. You get a nice planner. You get tons of practice problems that go along with that. And then I think the other thing is that sometimes -- I think this is actually a real problem with the exams today. It's that, because all exams are CBT, no one's on the same page really as when they're gonna take the exam. So it's often hard to find support when you need it, because now it's all fragmented.

Isaac Oakeson: It used to be, "Okay, I'm gonna take the PE in April." And so you had a slew of people studying for that exam to go take it in April. Or I'm gonna take it in October and we had a slew of people there. Now, you can take it year-round and you don't know who's studying and when they're gonna take it. So people are like, "Who else is doing this?"

Isaac Oakeson: And I think one of the neat things we offer right now, is just a free offering. If you go to ceacommunity.com, you can actually join our free community of like-minded people going through the FE or PE and get support there. But we also have private communities for members of our courses. And those are really thriving with people getting serious about posting really detailed questions and getting detailed answers.

Mark Oakeson: And that's a really cool resource that we offer because it helps people gain that community that they used to have when, like you're saying, that the test was offered only twice a year, you know? And so it was either April or October, and everybody would kind of group together. Those that liked to study in groups, which I am one of those guys. I had my groups, you know, in college that really helped me excel at my courses. I enjoy studying in groups.

Mark Oakeson: And so, back when the test was just April and October, I kind of fostered that dynamic, didn't it? But now that they're CBT, computer-based tests, that dynamic is not really fostered anymore. And so that resource that we offer on our course, it's a good thing. It kind of brings that back, doesn't it?

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. It gets people aligned in the same room together. And at least you can celebrate, commiserate, whatever you wanna do. You know, get help and people will be there to help you and we'll be there to help you too.

Isaac Oakeson: Anyway, we kind of got off on a tangent there. It's not all about our course, but it definitely will help.

Mark Oakeson: It's a resource. Yeah.

Isaac Oakeson: It's a resource. Go check it out. civilengieneringacademy.com.

Isaac Oakeson: So let's get back. I guess some other tips I can think of as people are studying, and really another secret to passing your exams is simply repetition, and there's a lot of psychology in that. But repetition with problems is gonna get you over the hump of passing this thing.

Isaac Oakeson: There's a really neat video put out by Smarter Every Day, and I've linked to this in our newsletter. So if you aren't a member to that, definitely go check it out because we love to share some fun stuff that's out there. But Destin with Smarter Every Day posted a fun video a while ago about a bike that was put in reverse, welded in reverse by some welders. And so, you know, when he turned left, the bike went right, and when he turned right, the bike went left and he could not ride it. I mean, his mind was fried.

Mark Oakeson: So if you're familiar with how bike is constructed, right? You got the frame in the front, there's kind of a tubular shaped part of the frame that the handlebars hooked to go down through to the fork of the bicycle. These welders were able to create -- They kind of offset the handle bars with another set of gears. So when you turn the handlebar right, the wheel would go left. When you turn the handlebar left, the wheel would go right. Isn't that how it was working, Isaac?

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. And what's funny is that no one can ride it. And so he like takes it on presentations and you get up there to ride because you think you know how to do it, but your mind knows how to ride a bike. Because you've ridden a bike multiple times over and over and you've trained your brain how to do it.

Isaac Oakeson: And the same thing can be applied to really anything we do in life. Like, I'm watching my one-year old Sam learn how to do anything, whether it's walking, he's obsessed with vacuums right now. I don't know why. But he's learned how to turn it on and off, you know, slowly. And now it's like automatic. And the same thing can be done with anybody, like playing video games, you know? Look at your own kids. You know, first thing they play Mario or something they suck, and all of a sudden they're like game wizards.

Mark Oakeson: And now they're whipping you, aren't they?

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. Now they're kicking your butt in Street Fighter or whatever. So anyway, you know, things take time and they take repetition. The same thing is with the FE or the PE exam. You're gonna -- And this ties into like taking practice exams. Like, the first time you take an exam, you're gonna suck. It's just that repetition. Getting back into like homework study mode and really allowing yourself to fail.

Isaac Oakeson: So how is failure a part of this equation?

Mark Oakeson: Well, it's just -- I don't know. I think we get used to. And it depends on who you are, of course. Some people are more naturally, you know, adept at certain things. It might be something physical. An athlete might be, you know, a lot more adept than somebody else at throwing a football or putting a basketball into a hoop, you know? But then that person may not be as adept mentally at picking things up, grasping concepts and things.

Mark Oakeson: But everybody needs to be able to understand that they're not going to get things right off the bat. And I think a lot of times we compare ourselves to others that are good at things that maybe we're not good at. And we start getting down on ourselves and we don't allow ourselves to fail. And maybe we're just not allowing ourselves to fail at the same rate that somebody else. Maybe one of our friends or, you know, one of our brothers or sisters or somebody that we look up to. We realize that we fail a lot at a lot higher rate than that person that we look up to, and it kind of gets us down and we get down on ourselves.

Mark Oakeson: But we have to realize that, you know, we don't have the same talents. We all don't have the same abilities, you know? But if somebody that wants to learn something, if they apply themselves, they might have to apply themselves a lot harder than somebody that they're comparing themselves to, which you shouldn't do.

Isaac Oakeson: There's always that guy in the office that passed it the first time, with two weeks of study,

Mark Oakeson: Right! And then, in the office, they took everybody out to lunch and had a big celebration. And then you come back and you didn't pass it the first time. And everybody's like, "Oh, what's wrong with you?" You know? But I think that we get into this pattern of comparing ourselves to people that we probably shouldn't be comparing ourselves to. We should just be competing with ourselves internally.

Mark Oakeson: And you know, there's a lot of psychology that goes along with that too. But we have to be able to allow ourselves -- We have to allow ourselves failure so that we can learn. That's the mechanism by which we learn things. We fail, we figure out what we're doing wrong, and we try to improve on the next attempt, you know? You might try it again and fail, and then we try to improve on the next attempt. But don't get caught up and don't be comparing yourself to somebody that might be, you know, a lot better than you at something.

Mark Oakeson: So what? You know, just you be better and compare yourself against yourself and set those goals and allow yourself to fail as you're learning. Because it's part of the process. But don't compare yourself to others.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. Your statistics and your measurements should be against yourself, not with coworkers, not with your boss, not with whoever else took the exam. So I think that's a very good point.

Isaac Oakeson: Man. Okay. A lot of tips shared. A lot of secrets. Maybe these aren't secrets, but they are definitely the keys to passing this thing. And maybe you just need to hear it. Maybe you're listening to this in your car or something. Maybe you've taken the exam where you've taken it lightheartedly and you just need someone to tell you, "You gotta get your button gear and go get the exam done." So if that's you, we're saying that.

Mark Oakeson: There's not a lot of easy answers. It's not a quick fix. It's nothing like that. It's good old-fashioned hard work and allowing yourself to fail. But you're learning at every failure and you're gaining as you go along. And you can do it. Absolutely.

Isaac Oakeson: You can do it. If you need more inspiration, go check out some of our other podcasts. I recall we did one with a guy named Zdenek who was in his sixties who passed the PE exam. So why in the world would you wanna take it in your sixties? And I think this also ties into people that are looking to pass this, either it's your first time or your fifth time, is knowing what your why is, too.

Isaac Oakeson: So, you know, whether it's, you know, getting a boost of income that comes naturally with this. But when someone takes it in their sixties, to me that's signifying that this is for personal, you know, gratification. Personal achievement. Knowing that they can do this and reach this massive milestone in their life. And I think it's pretty cool. We recorded that a while ago. He was a member of our course as well. And so, you know, discovering your why will drive you.

Mark Oakeson: Teach old dogs new tricks, I thought,

Isaac Oakeson: Oh man.

Mark Oakeson: Once your brain gets that old, you can't learn new things. Isn't that what's supposed to happen?

Isaac Oakeson: That's what they say. That's what my coworkers have said.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. It's not true.

Isaac Oakeson: I'm pretty sure you can.

Mark Oakeson: It's proof that, you know, if you buckle down, even though you're 60, you can achieve some things. So, it's all about will. And like you're saying, like, what's your, why? Why are you doing this? You know? Maybe it's for your loved ones too, Isaac. You know, you might be trying to do this so that you can provide a better life for your loved ones, your family. And that's a big why for a lot of people that are trying to do this thing.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah, of course. That's probably the biggest people have.

Isaac Oakeson: Okay. Well, I think we hit quite a few of them. Any other last pointers or tips that you have on secrets to passing your exams?

Mark Oakeson: Well, yeah. Just make sure, you know, you keep your attitude good. And like we've been talking, it's all about repetition. Practice, practice, practice. And allow yourself that opportunity to fail. As long as you're learning from your failures, then you're not failing, right?

Isaac Oakeson: Fail forward.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. You're moving forward. You're not falling backwards, you're "falling forward," as they say. So, yeah. All good stuff.

Isaac Oakeson: All right. Well, if you guys need more resources, definitely check us out at civilengineeringacademy.com. We definitely have our free YouTube channel as well with tons of free problems there. But if you are indeed looking for a course, we can definitely help you out. Whether it's for the FE that Mark and I teach, or the PE that's out there as well, you can find those courses at civilengineeringacademy.com and we'll walk you through everything.

Isaac Oakeson: The courses follow the specifications. They come with practice exams, even CBT simulators. We've got tons of video practice problems. And again, the support is awesome. And lots of other stuff that I haven't talked about.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah, those CBT simulators are cool.

Isaac Oakeson: Yeah. We've tried to make those look just like the real deal, so you can really get a feel for it before you actually go take the real deal. So, all part of the fun.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah.

Isaac Oakeson: Anyway, Mark, thanks for joining me today. It was a fun one, and hopefully people got some value out of this one.

Mark Oakeson: Yeah. Hopefully. Thanks for having me on again.

Isaac Oakeson: All right. See you.

Mark Oakeson: See you.